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guys welcome back to the disclosure team

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youtube channel and this was a

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pre-recorded interview with dr david

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clarke from sheffield hallam university

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this is a great conversation i really

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enjoyed this one so thank you for

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watching and yeah enjoy

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david thank you so much for joining me

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it's an absolute pleasure to speak to

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you finally um how are you doing today

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all right yeah and thanks for inviting

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me on vinnie i've heard a lot about you

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sure and

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you come highly recommended oh that's

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good to know thank you so much i

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appreciate that

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so

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um

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he's

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mentioned speaking to you a few times in

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the past so i thought i've got to get

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around to doing it

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um and as you can see behind me i've got

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the calvin photo recreation and it's a

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case that i've looked into a little bit

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um and i just want to talk about it more

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and more to see if we can find out what

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is going on or

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you know something something at all so

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i think before we do that would you be

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able to just give us a little bit of

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background on yourself how you came to

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be involved in this subject and a little

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bit of of your

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of what else you do with your your

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career and stuff

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yeah well how i got interested in it is

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probably the same way lots of other

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people did um in childhood

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um uh

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i remember distinctly um very clearly um

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reading all the sort of paperback books

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in the 1970s i was born in 1967 so

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around

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77 78 i was

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myself and my friends were into science

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fiction we read all the sort of the

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books that you could

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that were everywhere then chariots of

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the gods

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um the bermuda triangle we went to see

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close encounters the third kind and then

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my friends sort of moved on and put ufos

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and aliens behind them but

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because i was training to be a

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journalist it was something that kept

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coming back

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to me and i was a you know i joined the

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british ufo research association i was

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involved in setting up this um

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organization called the independent ufo

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network and that was sort of based in

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northern england

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and we we did all kinds of um

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investigations on site stuff philip

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mantle

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everyone will know he was um very big in

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that i mean he sort of defected to us

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from the yorkshire ufo society

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at the time

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and um i knew jenny randles i knew all

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the sort of um

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in fact we organized i think it was 80s

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early 90s we had this sort of annual

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conference thing we got some really big

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names like good hopkins wow joel keel

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wow um who i was a massive fan of um i

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just love john keel and

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because he's he was a journalist as well

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and he was in trouble into ufos and he

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made a living out of it he was someone i

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always saw aspired to be

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so um i grew in from from being someone

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who sort of believed six impossible

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things before breakfast you know like

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alice's adventures in wonderland

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the more i looked into it the more cases

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i sort of investigated and people i

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spoke to

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um i remember seeing things like arthur

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c clarke's mysterious world and seeing

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people talking about and things that

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happened to them and being absolutely

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mind blown away it's got to be aliens it

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can't be or inter-dimensional visitors

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or ultra-terrestrials that john keel

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thing

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and as i got older as i became

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[Music]

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became a journalist worked for the local

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rag um progressed up to the yorkshire

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post working for news agencies that kind

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of thing

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because it was by then the x-files era

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yeah

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everything was anything weird and

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wonderful got sent to me um and i was in

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a really good position to check things

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out because as a journalist you have

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you can just you can just pick the phone

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up and you're speaking to you know the

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head of this the local police force or

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you can you can get on to white or i

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remember distinctly during the late 90s

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when all the ufo stories were breaking

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and nick perk was first sort of um

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in the media a lot

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i could just pick the phone up and speak

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to the ministry of defense press office

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and just say oh this is in the mirror

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today

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what can you tell me about it and you

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know i'd get

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through to

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some quite um

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some quite knowledgeable people who knew

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what they were talking about so

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so that still mean good stead and that

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that's the journalistic side but whilst

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i was um

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working as a journalist because i was

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always interested in not just ufos but a

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whole range of odd things i would call

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it portium phenomena you know yeah um i

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was very much into the books of charles

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fought i was a very early subscriber to

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14 times i still write for them

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now

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um so i wasn't just into ufos i was into

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hauntings ghosts and again people were

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coming forward to me talk to me as a

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journalist about

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this kind of stuff so i i eventually

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came to realize that but what i was

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interested in was folklore which is what

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supernatural

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um stories and beliefs actually are they

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form part of widers or beliefs

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and it came to dawn on me that because i

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found that a lot of them when i actually

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applied the techniques of investigative

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journalism to them you could break it

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all down and you could find

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that you know woman

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thinks she's seen an alien from venus

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but it's actually just a weather balloon

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or something yeah a lot of people having

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reached that would just say oh well it's

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all the rubbish then into why why am i

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wasting my time on it but if you

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i hate that why has everything got to be

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either true or false why has everyone

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got to be either lying or telling the

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truth about an alien encounter why is

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there no sort of in between

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sort of things so as a folklorist

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at this i mean people find it really

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difficult to get their head around this

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and when i'm interviewed by the media

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the first thing they always say is

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do you believe and i understand

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do you believe in ufos do you believe in

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can you can you not study or be

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interested in the subject without having

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to believe in it you know you suggest

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the whole thing's like a religious thing

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absolutely i mean for me it's it's you

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know someone sees something like the

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calvin thing

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that thing that's flying behind your

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head vineyard

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is that an alien craft

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is it

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a um experimental aircraft of some kind

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or

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is the whole thing a leg pull

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now the work i did on that case that's

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the

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um conclusion i reached and that's using

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pure logic there can't be any other

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explanation

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it's got to be one of those three yeah

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absolutely well let's jump into that

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case so

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uh

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tell us about how you first heard about

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the case and where the case came from um

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and let's go from there

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right well that's quite an easy one

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really because no one as far as i know

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outside the ministry of defense knew

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anything about i'm talking about the

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wider public the media yeah no one knew

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anything about his case until 1996 when

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nick pope's first book open skies closed

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minds

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was published and in there

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there is a

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no more than i think about three or four

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paragraphs

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that just outlined the basic thing that

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he remembers when he started doing the

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job as the ufo desk officer

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um

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similar to the artist impression that

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you've got behind you when he walked

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into the

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to the office of the ministry of defense

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when i think he says

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he went for the job interview and he was

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up there on the wall

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now

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his immediate uh predecessor was a guy

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called owen hartup and he did the ufo

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desk job from

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1988 or 89 to 1991 so he was the chap

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who was in nick

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position when

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um the um

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sighting happened okay so he'd obviously

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dealt with it

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initially anyway because it had been

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immediately passed on to the defense

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intelligence staff

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um and it isn't that's why it isn't part

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of the ufo files the ministry of defense

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ones that were released but but the

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thing is here

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no one knew anything about it until nick

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wrote about it and and

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i think like malcolm robinson who was

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the um

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the guy who knows everything about ufos

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in scotland i remember having a

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conversation with him about it and he

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was like no i don't know anything about

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it and i just thought

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this is so weird

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so um when nick pope and i were talking

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and getting a lot longer okay i mean to

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2000 2001 when i was working

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on my first sort of proper

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book that looked at the ministry of

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defence and ufos he agreed to meet me in

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london for an interview and we had we

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spent a really pleasant two or three

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hours sat in a wine bar in central

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london nice and i asked him about this

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and he said he told me just told me the

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the what he knew and like all the other

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classic cases that nick pope

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says he

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writes about he only knows what he knows

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so he effectively told me this the same

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story that's in

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open skies closed minds

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and let's let's let's talk about the

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story right so the story is two guys who

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were out walking on the moors

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um

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north of pit pit lockery the yeah which

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is a town of about five or ten thousand

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souls

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quite a remote part of scotland if

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people watching this are familiar with

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that part of scotland you've got that

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big long drive up the a9 that takes you

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around the kangaroos

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national park so it's on there somewhere

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in a quite a remote area and calvin is

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just a tiny little hamlet i think

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00:10:05,110 --> 00:10:02,000
there's no more than two houses there

283
00:10:07,509 --> 00:10:05,120
it's a big estate with with deer there's

284
00:10:09,509 --> 00:10:07,519
some very large hotels

285
00:10:11,990 --> 00:10:09,519
and the story is that these two guys and

286
00:10:13,430 --> 00:10:12,000
nick describes them as hikers

287
00:10:14,949 --> 00:10:13,440
they weren't hikers that's what i've

288
00:10:16,630 --> 00:10:14,959
been able to discover but we'll get to

289
00:10:19,590 --> 00:10:16,640
that

290
00:10:21,350 --> 00:10:19,600
we're out there on the moors and

291
00:10:24,150 --> 00:10:21,360
i don't know he says that they heard a

292
00:10:26,470 --> 00:10:24,160
strange humming noise and they looked

293
00:10:27,430 --> 00:10:26,480
around and saw this what they described

294
00:10:29,350 --> 00:10:27,440
as a

295
00:10:31,590 --> 00:10:29,360
a huge a large

296
00:10:33,269 --> 00:10:31,600
diamond-shaped dark object in the sky

297
00:10:34,230 --> 00:10:33,279
and it was hovering there for about 10

298
00:10:36,310 --> 00:10:34,240
minutes

299
00:10:38,710 --> 00:10:36,320
um and they had

300
00:10:40,230 --> 00:10:38,720
a good slr camera on them so that you

301
00:10:42,389 --> 00:10:40,240
can imagine they were reeling off the

302
00:10:43,990 --> 00:10:42,399
shots i think they got about six good

303
00:10:46,310 --> 00:10:44,000
photographs of it and whilst they were

304
00:10:48,710 --> 00:10:46,320
doing that they saw what they described

305
00:10:51,509 --> 00:10:48,720
as an raf harrier that was coming down

306
00:10:53,590 --> 00:10:51,519
the valley and sort of circling around

307
00:10:54,949 --> 00:10:53,600
five or six or seven times and then

308
00:10:57,350 --> 00:10:54,959
taking off

309
00:10:59,269 --> 00:10:57,360
took these photographs

310
00:11:00,790 --> 00:10:59,279
um and then

311
00:11:02,630 --> 00:11:00,800
this is the this is where it gets

312
00:11:05,190 --> 00:11:02,640
bizarre because

313
00:11:07,990 --> 00:11:05,200
we know that the person who took the

314
00:11:10,230 --> 00:11:08,000
photographs it was with someone else

315
00:11:12,150 --> 00:11:10,240
and now i know i know now where they

316
00:11:13,350 --> 00:11:12,160
worked at the time

317
00:11:15,430 --> 00:11:13,360
um

318
00:11:17,910 --> 00:11:15,440
which we'll get into this is a bit of an

319
00:11:20,550 --> 00:11:17,920
exclusive for you wow

320
00:11:23,190 --> 00:11:20,560
they sent the photographs to the

321
00:11:25,990 --> 00:11:23,200
scottish daily record which is the big

322
00:11:27,590 --> 00:11:26,000
evening newspaper in scotland now i was

323
00:11:30,470 --> 00:11:27,600
working as a journalist at the time if

324
00:11:32,470 --> 00:11:30,480
i'd known about this i i knew people who

325
00:11:34,389 --> 00:11:32,480
were working on the daily record in fact

326
00:11:35,990 --> 00:11:34,399
my best friend of the sheffield star was

327
00:11:37,990 --> 00:11:36,000
dating a

328
00:11:40,310 --> 00:11:38,000
female journalist at the record at the

329
00:11:41,590 --> 00:11:40,320
time so if i'd known anything about this

330
00:11:43,829 --> 00:11:41,600
i could have i could have got to the

331
00:11:45,030 --> 00:11:43,839
bottom of it easily just by picking a

332
00:11:47,030 --> 00:11:45,040
phone up

333
00:11:48,550 --> 00:11:47,040
anyway um

334
00:11:49,910 --> 00:11:48,560
they sent the photographs of the daily

335
00:11:51,269 --> 00:11:49,920
record and there is a memo in the

336
00:11:52,389 --> 00:11:51,279
ministry of defense files that were

337
00:11:56,389 --> 00:11:52,399
released on

338
00:11:59,190 --> 00:11:56,399
in 2009 written i think by owen harter

339
00:12:00,470 --> 00:11:59,200
saying that they had received these

340
00:12:02,949 --> 00:12:00,480
photographs

341
00:12:05,110 --> 00:12:02,959
from the daily record who'd sent them to

342
00:12:06,870 --> 00:12:05,120
the ministry of defense

343
00:12:09,350 --> 00:12:06,880
saying we've got these pictures

344
00:12:11,670 --> 00:12:09,360
can you give us a quote and you can tell

345
00:12:14,069 --> 00:12:11,680
from the tone of the memo because it's

346
00:12:16,629 --> 00:12:14,079
copied to the under secretary of state

347
00:12:18,550 --> 00:12:16,639
for defense and i think was tom king

348
00:12:20,629 --> 00:12:18,560
quite a prominent mp at the time this is

349
00:12:23,350 --> 00:12:20,639
during the gulf war

350
00:12:25,590 --> 00:12:23,360
the first goal for just at the beginning

351
00:12:26,949 --> 00:12:25,600
basically saying oh my god the daily

352
00:12:28,870 --> 00:12:26,959
record have got these amazing

353
00:12:30,550 --> 00:12:28,880
photographs of a ufo we're flagging it

354
00:12:32,629 --> 00:12:30,560
up to you just because they're going to

355
00:12:34,230 --> 00:12:32,639
run the story and there's a there's a

356
00:12:36,870 --> 00:12:34,240
second little thing that's that's like

357
00:12:38,949 --> 00:12:36,880
defensive press briefing this is what we

358
00:12:41,430 --> 00:12:38,959
say if pressed you know i we've shown

359
00:12:44,310 --> 00:12:41,440
the images to our experts who are our

360
00:12:46,710 --> 00:12:44,320
experts but we can't tell them that um

361
00:12:48,710 --> 00:12:46,720
um and they've they've been not being

362
00:12:51,269 --> 00:12:48,720
able to determine what the

363
00:12:53,190 --> 00:12:51,279
diamond-shaped object is but definitely

364
00:12:56,230 --> 00:12:53,200
the object in the the other object the

365
00:12:58,629 --> 00:12:56,240
aircraft is a harrier no doubt about it

366
00:13:00,949 --> 00:12:58,639
and also

367
00:13:02,550 --> 00:13:00,959
they've found a second one as well can i

368
00:13:03,910 --> 00:13:02,560
just jump in and say could it i mean we

369
00:13:05,430 --> 00:13:03,920
know that the us marine corps had

370
00:13:07,910 --> 00:13:05,440
harriers as well

371
00:13:09,350 --> 00:13:07,920
at that time um so is there a chance it

372
00:13:11,750 --> 00:13:09,360
could have been a u.s

373
00:13:14,069 --> 00:13:11,760
harrier well

374
00:13:16,790 --> 00:13:14,079
well

375
00:13:18,949 --> 00:13:16,800
the second aircraft was apparently not

376
00:13:21,670 --> 00:13:18,959
very clear but when they analyzed it you

377
00:13:23,750 --> 00:13:21,680
could see a second possibly a harrier

378
00:13:25,030 --> 00:13:23,760
also in in some of the some of the

379
00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:25,040
photographs

380
00:13:29,350 --> 00:13:27,279
but the briefing says that they have

381
00:13:32,870 --> 00:13:29,360
checked their logs and they've got no

382
00:13:36,069 --> 00:13:32,880
record of any harriers operating at that

383
00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:36,079
place and at that time

384
00:13:38,870 --> 00:13:36,959
okay

385
00:13:40,550 --> 00:13:38,880
so what you've then got all that all

386
00:13:42,870 --> 00:13:40,560
that there is in the file this is the

387
00:13:46,069 --> 00:13:42,880
secret sec sec as file this is the one

388
00:13:47,269 --> 00:13:46,079
the nick pope and our top file yeah um

389
00:13:49,350 --> 00:13:47,279
now they were

390
00:13:51,430 --> 00:13:49,360
junior civil servants they didn't have

391
00:13:53,350 --> 00:13:51,440
any access to um

392
00:13:55,189 --> 00:13:53,360
secret material top secret material

393
00:13:57,189 --> 00:13:55,199
there was a guy above them

394
00:13:59,110 --> 00:13:57,199
oddly enough whose secret surname was

395
00:14:04,069 --> 00:13:59,120
clark

396
00:14:05,829 --> 00:14:04,079
division he's the guy who nick pope says

397
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:05,839
later came in and took this poster down

398
00:14:11,509 --> 00:14:09,120
off the wall although nick pope will not

399
00:14:13,110 --> 00:14:11,519
name who this person is anyone who's got

400
00:14:15,670 --> 00:14:13,120
access to the civil service yearbook

401
00:14:17,269 --> 00:14:15,680
he's listed in there right but my but

402
00:14:18,710 --> 00:14:17,279
unfortunately like a lot of people

403
00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:18,720
involved in this case he's no longer

404
00:14:21,910 --> 00:14:19,680
with us

405
00:14:23,590 --> 00:14:21,920
i believe he's he died some years ago so

406
00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:23,600
we can't ask him

407
00:14:28,470 --> 00:14:25,519
what happened but the interesting thing

408
00:14:31,110 --> 00:14:28,480
is in the files there's nothing else

409
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:31,120
about the case in the the

410
00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:33,839
the ufo files now as anyone who knows

411
00:14:37,990 --> 00:14:35,680
anything about this subject will know

412
00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:38,000
what the files that nick pope had access

413
00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:40,560
to were just one set of files

414
00:14:47,110 --> 00:14:44,320
yes there was this other branch di55 the

415
00:14:48,949 --> 00:14:47,120
defense intelligence staff who were the

416
00:14:51,030 --> 00:14:48,959
and nick pope can deny this all he likes

417
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:51,040
but the facts are out there they were

418
00:14:55,829 --> 00:14:53,279
the people who did the investigations

419
00:14:58,629 --> 00:14:55,839
and i've spoken to someone from that

420
00:15:01,110 --> 00:14:58,639
division who knows all about this case

421
00:15:02,629 --> 00:15:01,120
and who actually um knows

422
00:15:04,230 --> 00:15:02,639
i've got to be really careful here

423
00:15:06,150 --> 00:15:04,240
because sure i don't want to give his

424
00:15:08,230 --> 00:15:06,160
identity away because this guy is his

425
00:15:09,030 --> 00:15:08,240
signature to the official secrets act

426
00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:09,040
sure

427
00:15:12,310 --> 00:15:10,720
i'm leaping ahead here aren't i really

428
00:15:15,509 --> 00:15:12,320
because we need to tell the story about

429
00:15:17,030 --> 00:15:15,519
why it never emerged this this this case

430
00:15:19,110 --> 00:15:17,040
out of all the cases that i've looked

431
00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:19,120
into over the years i've got to say it's

432
00:15:23,829 --> 00:15:21,680
the most baffling of all

433
00:15:27,350 --> 00:15:23,839
the number of weird and wonderful terms

434
00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:27,360
it's taken in just in the last 12 months

435
00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:30,800
yeah perhaps what i should do now is he

436
00:15:34,470 --> 00:15:32,240
nick pope

437
00:15:36,230 --> 00:15:34,480
said gave the basic details about the

438
00:15:38,389 --> 00:15:36,240
case in his book now you've got to

439
00:15:40,870 --> 00:15:38,399
assume that that book was security

440
00:15:42,310 --> 00:15:40,880
checked before it was released because

441
00:15:44,389 --> 00:15:42,320
we know that there were various other

442
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:44,399
stories in it such as the mysterious

443
00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:46,560
missing time period that nick

444
00:15:51,110 --> 00:15:48,480
experienced in florida

445
00:15:53,430 --> 00:15:51,120
that were removed from that book at the

446
00:15:55,269 --> 00:15:53,440
behest of someone presumably the

447
00:15:56,710 --> 00:15:55,279
reviewers or the um

448
00:15:58,230 --> 00:15:56,720
the intelligence services who just

449
00:16:00,230 --> 00:15:58,240
thought you know this is too dodgy or

450
00:16:02,550 --> 00:16:00,240
it's gonna embarrass us so all that was

451
00:16:04,550 --> 00:16:02,560
taken out but for some bizarre reason

452
00:16:07,189 --> 00:16:04,560
and maybe it was a mistake they allowed

453
00:16:10,150 --> 00:16:07,199
the calvin thing to go in to sit in

454
00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:10,160
there and immediately it was noticed not

455
00:16:16,470 --> 00:16:13,199
by ufologists necessarily but

456
00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:16,480
my local mp at the time don valley mp

457
00:16:20,949 --> 00:16:19,440
martin redland who was an ex um

458
00:16:23,189 --> 00:16:20,959
i think he was a minor but he'd been in

459
00:16:25,829 --> 00:16:23,199
the raf and he read nick's book and he's

460
00:16:28,150 --> 00:16:25,839
he got massively into ufos and he asked

461
00:16:30,790 --> 00:16:28,160
i think he has something like 20 or 30

462
00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:30,800
parliamentary questions on the subject

463
00:16:35,829 --> 00:16:33,600
in a tiny period of time and then died

464
00:16:37,350 --> 00:16:35,839
very suddenly so his interest no longer

465
00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:37,360
continue but one of the questions he

466
00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:38,320
asked

467
00:16:44,470 --> 00:16:41,680
was about the calvin case and that is in

468
00:16:46,230 --> 00:16:44,480
the files their very brief response to

469
00:16:49,829 --> 00:16:46,240
it just basically saying

470
00:16:51,749 --> 00:16:49,839
uh yes we received these images from a

471
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:51,759
member of the public who sent them to a

472
00:16:56,470 --> 00:16:54,240
look to a the scottish daily record and

473
00:16:59,030 --> 00:16:56,480
they were looked at by our

474
00:17:00,870 --> 00:16:59,040
defense specialists who

475
00:17:02,949 --> 00:17:00,880
decided that there was there was nothing

476
00:17:05,350 --> 00:17:02,959
on them of any defense significance now

477
00:17:08,309 --> 00:17:05,360
you've got to read in between the code

478
00:17:10,470 --> 00:17:08,319
words that are there nothing of defense

479
00:17:15,029 --> 00:17:10,480
significance that to me reads we know

480
00:17:19,590 --> 00:17:17,270
and it does say

481
00:17:22,309 --> 00:17:19,600
we have returned we returned the

482
00:17:24,390 --> 00:17:22,319
negatives to the person who took the

483
00:17:27,029 --> 00:17:24,400
photographs now the one thing i have not

484
00:17:28,549 --> 00:17:27,039
been able to solve is who that person

485
00:17:31,110 --> 00:17:28,559
was i know

486
00:17:32,549 --> 00:17:31,120
where they worked at the time i know the

487
00:17:36,150 --> 00:17:32,559
circumstances in which they took the

488
00:17:38,950 --> 00:17:36,160
photographs and i think i know now why

489
00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:38,960
the daily record didn't run the story

490
00:17:42,070 --> 00:17:40,080
and

491
00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:42,080
lots of people have speculated that um

492
00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:44,240
they were served with a d notice which

493
00:17:49,029 --> 00:17:46,720
is for anyone who knows what d notice is

494
00:17:51,590 --> 00:17:49,039
it's it's not something that

495
00:17:54,789 --> 00:17:51,600
if you're a media organization uh and

496
00:17:56,150 --> 00:17:54,799
you you've got some sensitive material

497
00:17:59,350 --> 00:17:56,160
you know that's touching national

498
00:18:01,430 --> 00:17:59,360
security the mib don't turn up on your

499
00:18:02,870 --> 00:18:01,440
doorstep and slap something on your

500
00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:02,880
thing and say right you can't write

501
00:18:07,909 --> 00:18:04,640
about this

502
00:18:10,390 --> 00:18:07,919
it's totally voluntary the system

503
00:18:11,830 --> 00:18:10,400
what it is is i mean i know because i've

504
00:18:13,430 --> 00:18:11,840
used it i've phoned the denoted

505
00:18:15,110 --> 00:18:13,440
secretary several times while i was

506
00:18:17,510 --> 00:18:15,120
working as a journalist

507
00:18:19,510 --> 00:18:17,520
if you've got a story if someone says

508
00:18:21,669 --> 00:18:19,520
comes to you and says you know i i know

509
00:18:24,390 --> 00:18:21,679
that you know somebody's involved in

510
00:18:26,310 --> 00:18:24,400
espionage or something about nuclear

511
00:18:28,470 --> 00:18:26,320
weapons or something and you think it's

512
00:18:29,909 --> 00:18:28,480
a good story but should i be rich should

513
00:18:32,150 --> 00:18:29,919
i be actually publishing this is it

514
00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:32,160
going to put national security at risk

515
00:18:37,750 --> 00:18:35,200
and the system is you phone this number

516
00:18:39,350 --> 00:18:37,760
in whitehall and this guy

517
00:18:41,110 --> 00:18:39,360
sometimes it's i think he's been a woman

518
00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:41,120
on a couple of occasions who's usually a

519
00:18:45,990 --> 00:18:43,600
retired admiral or an air marshal or

520
00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:46,000
something who sort of sits separately to

521
00:18:50,310 --> 00:18:48,480
the mod you talk to them about the story

522
00:18:52,549 --> 00:18:50,320
and then they will sort of say well

523
00:18:54,789 --> 00:18:52,559
perhaps you shouldn't use it or if you

524
00:18:57,270 --> 00:18:54,799
use it maybe take this information out

525
00:18:59,190 --> 00:18:57,280
because that could be useful to an enemy

526
00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:59,200
but as a journalist

527
00:19:02,310 --> 00:19:00,240
there's nothing

528
00:19:05,270 --> 00:19:02,320
even if you were to do that there's

529
00:19:06,870 --> 00:19:05,280
still nothing to stop you publishing

530
00:19:09,590 --> 00:19:06,880
and what i found baffling about this

531
00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:09,600
story is why did the record not run the

532
00:19:13,750 --> 00:19:11,600
story even if

533
00:19:15,909 --> 00:19:13,760
the mod had said don't publish it

534
00:19:16,870 --> 00:19:15,919
because the photograph shows a top

535
00:19:19,190 --> 00:19:16,880
secret

536
00:19:20,549 --> 00:19:19,200
experimental aircraft

537
00:19:22,710 --> 00:19:20,559
no journalist

538
00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:22,720
in this country as far as i'm aware not

539
00:19:27,830 --> 00:19:24,960
known with none with any um credibility

540
00:19:29,750 --> 00:19:27,840
anyway even if they were told that would

541
00:19:31,909 --> 00:19:29,760
not publish the story in fact they would

542
00:19:34,230 --> 00:19:31,919
think it was almost like a red rag to a

543
00:19:36,150 --> 00:19:34,240
bull they said wow we will definitely

544
00:19:37,669 --> 00:19:36,160
publish it and if you try to stop us

545
00:19:39,669 --> 00:19:37,679
we'll send it abroad and get somebody

546
00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:39,679
else who's not subject to national

547
00:19:45,270 --> 00:19:42,240
security to publish it

548
00:19:46,870 --> 00:19:45,280
so the problem is

549
00:19:49,590 --> 00:19:46,880
i didn't really pay much attention to

550
00:19:52,310 --> 00:19:49,600
the kelvin thing like most people didn't

551
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:52,320
because it didn't really get much

552
00:19:56,549 --> 00:19:55,200
publicity did it i mean you know it just

553
00:19:59,590 --> 00:19:56,559
like i said

554
00:20:02,310 --> 00:19:59,600
limited information for so many years

555
00:20:04,630 --> 00:20:02,320
without a named person without a story

556
00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:04,640
from someone who was actually there it's

557
00:20:10,310 --> 00:20:07,520
quite dull really isn't it and we all we

558
00:20:12,070 --> 00:20:10,320
have is this crap photograph which isn't

559
00:20:15,190 --> 00:20:12,080
even a photograph it's the black and

560
00:20:17,270 --> 00:20:15,200
white one is that yeah yeah

561
00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:17,280
that didn't emerge don't forget there

562
00:20:21,830 --> 00:20:19,600
was nothing in 1996 there was no

563
00:20:24,470 --> 00:20:21,840
photograph at all so the first time we

564
00:20:28,070 --> 00:20:24,480
got to see the photograph was in 2009

565
00:20:30,549 --> 00:20:28,080
when the di55 files not

566
00:20:32,630 --> 00:20:30,559
nick sections files were released as

567
00:20:34,230 --> 00:20:32,640
part of that program at the national

568
00:20:36,310 --> 00:20:34,240
archives i was involved in when they

569
00:20:39,029 --> 00:20:36,320
transferred all the

570
00:20:40,549 --> 00:20:39,039
the surviving ufo files

571
00:20:42,470 --> 00:20:40,559
to the national archives they were all

572
00:20:43,510 --> 00:20:42,480
scanned and all the names and addresses

573
00:20:45,430 --> 00:20:43,520
and everything

574
00:20:48,549 --> 00:20:45,440
were taken out of them yeah

575
00:20:51,430 --> 00:20:48,559
now there is a handwritten report on the

576
00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:51,440
calvin um sighting that's in both sets

577
00:20:56,789 --> 00:20:54,720
of files that i think was written by um

578
00:20:58,230 --> 00:20:56,799
owen auto he must have taken it down

579
00:21:00,310 --> 00:20:58,240
over the phone when he was talking to

580
00:21:02,789 --> 00:21:00,320
someone i think he was the raf press

581
00:21:04,390 --> 00:21:02,799
officer in scotland and the name of the

582
00:21:07,270 --> 00:21:04,400
witness is in there

583
00:21:09,270 --> 00:21:07,280
and it's been covered by being redacted

584
00:21:10,710 --> 00:21:09,280
now there is now you will have all you

585
00:21:13,830 --> 00:21:10,720
will come across this story that's been

586
00:21:15,430 --> 00:21:13,840
in the sun and i'm the source of it that

587
00:21:17,590 --> 00:21:15,440
this um

588
00:21:19,990 --> 00:21:17,600
name has been withheld for 50 years

589
00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:20,000
additional 50 years or something yeah

590
00:21:25,270 --> 00:21:21,760
they're not going to remove it until the

591
00:21:26,549 --> 00:21:25,280
1st of january 2076. yep now that is

592
00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:26,559
true

593
00:21:32,310 --> 00:21:30,080
there's various people who are appealing

594
00:21:35,110 --> 00:21:32,320
this is the data protection act it's got

595
00:21:36,870 --> 00:21:35,120
nothing to do with that specific name

596
00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:36,880
they haven't gone into the files and

597
00:21:39,669 --> 00:21:37,760
said

598
00:21:42,149 --> 00:21:39,679
right we need to stop people finding out

599
00:21:45,029 --> 00:21:42,159
who the identity of this witness is in

600
00:21:46,710 --> 00:21:45,039
this particular case right all the files

601
00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:46,720
that have been released

602
00:21:52,630 --> 00:21:50,480
since 2005 every single name address and

603
00:21:54,870 --> 00:21:52,640
the name names of the mod people who

604
00:21:57,110 --> 00:21:54,880
dealt with them all subject to the same

605
00:21:58,710 --> 00:21:57,120
data protection act so same same 50

606
00:22:01,510 --> 00:21:58,720
years yeah

607
00:22:03,190 --> 00:22:01,520
right yeah okay because up to 2005 i

608
00:22:05,029 --> 00:22:03,200
used to go down to the national archives

609
00:22:07,830 --> 00:22:05,039
on the 1st of january every year up to

610
00:22:09,270 --> 00:22:07,840
then to see the latest ufo files that

611
00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:09,280
were released and they used to release

612
00:22:13,029 --> 00:22:10,640
them under

613
00:22:15,430 --> 00:22:13,039
the 30-year rule yep

614
00:22:17,909 --> 00:22:15,440
completely unredacted all the names and

615
00:22:18,870 --> 00:22:17,919
addresses of people who've seen things

616
00:22:23,909 --> 00:22:18,880
um

617
00:22:27,110 --> 00:22:23,919
who dealt with them all that

618
00:22:29,190 --> 00:22:27,120
2005 oddly because we got the freedom of

619
00:22:30,870 --> 00:22:29,200
information act and this seems like so

620
00:22:32,149 --> 00:22:30,880
bizarre that under freedom of

621
00:22:33,909 --> 00:22:32,159
information

622
00:22:35,830 --> 00:22:33,919
we're now no longer allowed to see any

623
00:22:38,470 --> 00:22:35,840
of that information that's because

624
00:22:42,230 --> 00:22:38,480
section 40 of the freedom of information

625
00:22:44,549 --> 00:22:42,240
act is covers data protection and

626
00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:44,559
covers any personal information i.e

627
00:22:48,470 --> 00:22:46,320
people's names and addresses

628
00:22:51,270 --> 00:22:48,480
and we've also drivers

629
00:22:53,909 --> 00:22:51,280
yeah we've got european um i mean you

630
00:22:55,510 --> 00:22:53,919
everyone will know the gdpr you know you

631
00:22:57,990 --> 00:22:55,520
must have had all those emails in your

632
00:23:00,710 --> 00:22:58,000
inbox saying you're on a database would

633
00:23:02,310 --> 00:23:00,720
you allow us to use your details

634
00:23:03,750 --> 00:23:02,320
well that's why we can't say the name of

635
00:23:05,909 --> 00:23:03,760
the calvin

636
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:05,919
witness i'm afraid because if that file

637
00:23:11,190 --> 00:23:09,120
had been released before 2005

638
00:23:12,710 --> 00:23:11,200
we'd have his name

639
00:23:15,270 --> 00:23:12,720
and do you think he's the only one now

640
00:23:16,470 --> 00:23:15,280
he's apparently got the negatives back

641
00:23:18,310 --> 00:23:16,480
do you think that's that's the only

642
00:23:20,630 --> 00:23:18,320
remaining copy or do you think there may

643
00:23:22,630 --> 00:23:20,640
be copies flying around somewhere maybe

644
00:23:26,230 --> 00:23:22,640
an mod or intelligence

645
00:23:28,149 --> 00:23:26,240
well in 2009 um i was extreme i was

646
00:23:30,789 --> 00:23:28,159
running this release of the file so i

647
00:23:31,430 --> 00:23:30,799
had dozens of other ufo stories to sort

648
00:23:33,750 --> 00:23:31,440
of

649
00:23:35,430 --> 00:23:33,760
work on and i was i i was i was able to

650
00:23:37,510 --> 00:23:35,440
take all these calls from newspapers all

651
00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:37,520
over the country every time we released

652
00:23:41,430 --> 00:23:39,120
a batch of files we had to do like a

653
00:23:43,269 --> 00:23:41,440
geographical breakdown and you'd have

654
00:23:45,190 --> 00:23:43,279
someone from essex ringing oh there's

655
00:23:46,870 --> 00:23:45,200
anything in the files in the sx area

656
00:23:48,390 --> 00:23:46,880
somebody from norfolk somebody from

657
00:23:50,230 --> 00:23:48,400
wales so

658
00:23:51,830 --> 00:23:50,240
the calvin thing i thought this is this

659
00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:51,840
is obviously the story that's in nick

660
00:23:56,149 --> 00:23:54,240
pope's book yeah it's obviously an

661
00:23:58,070 --> 00:23:56,159
interesting case and i remember i did

662
00:24:00,870 --> 00:23:58,080
what i could at the time i followed it

663
00:24:03,430 --> 00:24:00,880
up i spoke to people on the daily record

664
00:24:06,789 --> 00:24:03,440
um pushed it as far as i could and no it

665
00:24:08,390 --> 00:24:06,799
was i thought bizarrely then no one knew

666
00:24:11,269 --> 00:24:08,400
anything about it and i spoke to the

667
00:24:13,590 --> 00:24:11,279
picture editor at the time it wasn't the

668
00:24:15,830 --> 00:24:13,600
person who i've subsequently discovered

669
00:24:17,830 --> 00:24:15,840
was the person who dealt with the case

670
00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:17,840
right but they searched their files i

671
00:24:21,110 --> 00:24:19,600
spoke to the news editor it's like we

672
00:24:23,029 --> 00:24:21,120
don't remember anything about it i'm

673
00:24:25,029 --> 00:24:23,039
really sorry

674
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:25,039
how can that be the case you know it's

675
00:24:28,789 --> 00:24:26,559
only like it was only

676
00:24:30,870 --> 00:24:28,799
19 years earlier but there's a big

677
00:24:32,230 --> 00:24:30,880
turnover of staff on newspapers people

678
00:24:33,909 --> 00:24:32,240
are moving all the time to other

679
00:24:35,430 --> 00:24:33,919
newspapers yeah

680
00:24:38,070 --> 00:24:35,440
so

681
00:24:40,390 --> 00:24:38,080
um i did what i could in 2009 couldn't

682
00:24:42,230 --> 00:24:40,400
really progress any further

683
00:24:45,269 --> 00:24:42,240
and um

684
00:24:47,510 --> 00:24:45,279
we knew that um di55 had done the

685
00:24:50,230 --> 00:24:47,520
investigation on this because there were

686
00:24:53,590 --> 00:24:50,240
some other papers in those files

687
00:24:55,590 --> 00:24:53,600
that showed that what was it in um

688
00:24:57,110 --> 00:24:55,600
they'd done an initial analysis of the

689
00:24:59,909 --> 00:24:57,120
photographs and then there's another

690
00:25:01,190 --> 00:24:59,919
really secret document for about a year

691
00:25:04,630 --> 00:25:01,200
later

692
00:25:06,710 --> 00:25:04,640
where they re-task um the analysis and

693
00:25:08,149 --> 00:25:06,720
they send it to this agency called jarek

694
00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:08,159
which is the um

695
00:25:13,990 --> 00:25:11,600
photo at the res photo analysis

696
00:25:15,269 --> 00:25:14,000
center at rf brampton in cambridgeshire

697
00:25:16,630 --> 00:25:15,279
and they were the people who during the

698
00:25:17,830 --> 00:25:16,640
second world war used to do all the

699
00:25:19,590 --> 00:25:17,840
analysis

700
00:25:22,149 --> 00:25:19,600
on the aerial photographs taking over

701
00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:22,159
germany so they looked at it and they

702
00:25:27,190 --> 00:25:24,080
looked at it at the time when the when

703
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:27,200
the mod first got the images and about

704
00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:29,120
18 months later they were asked to do

705
00:25:33,750 --> 00:25:30,880
another analysis of it and i thought

706
00:25:35,350 --> 00:25:33,760
this is really peculiar why

707
00:25:37,430 --> 00:25:35,360
why did they do that and this is when

708
00:25:39,029 --> 00:25:37,440
they produce these what they call

709
00:25:41,830 --> 00:25:39,039
view foils

710
00:25:43,269 --> 00:25:41,840
which i am told is what what they did

711
00:25:44,710 --> 00:25:43,279
was they got

712
00:25:46,950 --> 00:25:44,720
i don't think they've got the negatives

713
00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:46,960
then but they got some kind of image

714
00:25:50,149 --> 00:25:48,640
based upon the negative and they sent it

715
00:25:52,710 --> 00:25:50,159
to jarek and they put it on one of these

716
00:25:55,590 --> 00:25:52,720
like a white board yeah to protect it up

717
00:25:57,909 --> 00:25:55,600
onto a bit onto this into a wall so they

718
00:25:59,990 --> 00:25:57,919
could look at it in massive detail and i

719
00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:00,000
think the images that are in the files

720
00:26:05,110 --> 00:26:03,520
is like a photocopy of one of these

721
00:26:07,669 --> 00:26:05,120
view files and they did like really

722
00:26:08,950 --> 00:26:07,679
detailed line drawings

723
00:26:11,110 --> 00:26:08,960
based upon

724
00:26:12,710 --> 00:26:11,120
the the image behind you and that that's

725
00:26:15,029 --> 00:26:12,720
that image is sort of

726
00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:15,039
i think nikpo worked with someone from

727
00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:17,840
the scottish sun to produce that sort of

728
00:26:22,470 --> 00:26:19,760
to recreate it yeah

729
00:26:24,310 --> 00:26:22,480
yeah so why did they do that and why

730
00:26:26,390 --> 00:26:24,320
then well i think you've got to see it

731
00:26:28,310 --> 00:26:26,400
in the what i've come to realize

732
00:26:30,230 --> 00:26:28,320
is you've got to see this in the context

733
00:26:33,029 --> 00:26:30,240
of of what was going on at the time

734
00:26:36,549 --> 00:26:33,039
those photographs were taken and firstly

735
00:26:39,269 --> 00:26:36,559
if it if the date of the case is correct

736
00:26:40,789 --> 00:26:39,279
4th of august 1990. if you type that

737
00:26:42,950 --> 00:26:40,799
into a search engine you will

738
00:26:45,430 --> 00:26:42,960
immediately realize it was two days

739
00:26:49,029 --> 00:26:45,440
after saddam hussein's forces had

740
00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:51,590
coincidence

741
00:26:55,190 --> 00:26:53,360
now that's what triggered off operation

742
00:26:57,350 --> 00:26:55,200
desert storm the first gulf war now the

743
00:26:59,110 --> 00:26:57,360
war didn't actually begin in you know we

744
00:27:00,070 --> 00:26:59,120
didn't land forces there and start

745
00:27:01,750 --> 00:27:00,080
bombing

746
00:27:04,070 --> 00:27:01,760
until i think it was the beginning of

747
00:27:05,830 --> 00:27:04,080
the following year yeah but if you

748
00:27:07,110 --> 00:27:05,840
remember that first gulf war it was the

749
00:27:10,230 --> 00:27:07,120
it was the first war in which the

750
00:27:12,789 --> 00:27:10,240
americans used the f-1117 the stealth

751
00:27:15,269 --> 00:27:12,799
bomber and the b-2 the b-2 bomber

752
00:27:16,870 --> 00:27:15,279
absolutely in saddam hussein's forces

753
00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:16,880
well

754
00:27:20,470 --> 00:27:18,640
into a bit of a coincidence that

755
00:27:22,470 --> 00:27:20,480
something very like

756
00:27:24,470 --> 00:27:22,480
a stealth aircraft was apparently flying

757
00:27:25,830 --> 00:27:24,480
around in the scottish islands just

758
00:27:28,950 --> 00:27:25,840
before

759
00:27:32,470 --> 00:27:30,789
i mean does that but then you could

760
00:27:35,110 --> 00:27:32,480
argue the fact of if the witness

761
00:27:37,909 --> 00:27:35,120
statements have any bearing that the

762
00:27:39,510 --> 00:27:37,919
object was stationary for 10 minutes

763
00:27:41,590 --> 00:27:39,520
i mean i mean i'm just

764
00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:41,600
pulling out little details here and

765
00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:43,120
obviously there's nothing to corroborate

766
00:27:46,389 --> 00:27:44,640
corroborate them

767
00:27:48,389 --> 00:27:46,399
so we don't the trouble is we don't have

768
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:48,399
any witness statements all we have is a

769
00:27:53,190 --> 00:27:51,440
scribbled node by owen artop that says

770
00:27:55,430 --> 00:27:53,200
all this diamond-shaped object hovering

771
00:27:57,029 --> 00:27:55,440
and it went directly upwards now

772
00:27:59,350 --> 00:27:57,039
knowing what we know today with these

773
00:28:00,830 --> 00:27:59,360
advanced drones why is that so amazing

774
00:28:04,630 --> 00:28:00,840
yeah

775
00:28:05,990 --> 00:28:04,640
throwing out a little devil's advocate

776
00:28:08,470 --> 00:28:06,000
here just to

777
00:28:10,710 --> 00:28:08,480
just to see but you're i mean yeah

778
00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:10,720
but the other thing is well i've yet to

779
00:28:13,990 --> 00:28:12,000
get to that was my first point the

780
00:28:14,789 --> 00:28:14,000
second point is if you look at all the

781
00:28:16,310 --> 00:28:14,799
other

782
00:28:18,789 --> 00:28:16,320
background material that's been released

783
00:28:20,630 --> 00:28:18,799
in the ministry of defense files and the

784
00:28:23,269 --> 00:28:20,640
newspaper stories at the time they are

785
00:28:25,830 --> 00:28:23,279
absolutely um going nuts about the

786
00:28:28,950 --> 00:28:25,840
rumors about this thing called aurora

787
00:28:32,549 --> 00:28:28,960
which was supposed to be a top secret

788
00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:32,559
american hypersonic spy plane that was

789
00:28:37,510 --> 00:28:34,320
that would come into service and it was

790
00:28:39,830 --> 00:28:37,520
supposed to replace the sr-71 blackbird

791
00:28:42,710 --> 00:28:39,840
now the blackbird was based

792
00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:42,720
quite openly in the uk right up to

793
00:28:47,750 --> 00:28:45,600
january 1990

794
00:28:50,230 --> 00:28:47,760
so just before this photograph was taken

795
00:28:52,870 --> 00:28:50,240
there was a top secret american spy

796
00:28:54,310 --> 00:28:52,880
plane based at raf mildenhall with the

797
00:28:55,430 --> 00:28:54,320
permission of margaret thatcher's

798
00:28:58,310 --> 00:28:55,440
government

799
00:29:01,190 --> 00:28:58,320
okay the last one supposedly departed

800
00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:01,200
18th january 1990

801
00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:02,960
okay and then there's all these rumors

802
00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:06,320
and james defense weekly um the scotsman

803
00:29:11,830 --> 00:29:09,200
was full of stories about people in

804
00:29:14,630 --> 00:29:11,840
scotland having seen something flying in

805
00:29:17,510 --> 00:29:14,640
and out of raf macrohanish which is this

806
00:29:20,870 --> 00:29:17,520
um quite remote airfield uh used by the

807
00:29:23,029 --> 00:29:20,880
u.s navy and by nato on the mull of

808
00:29:25,190 --> 00:29:23,039
kintaya not far from

809
00:29:29,110 --> 00:29:25,200
his pad and these did these witness

810
00:29:32,070 --> 00:29:29,120
sightings happen after january 1990

811
00:29:33,750 --> 00:29:32,080
yes mainly mainly after around so well

812
00:29:36,710 --> 00:29:33,760
the thing is there's lots of newspaper

813
00:29:39,430 --> 00:29:36,720
stories about them 1991 1992 and then

814
00:29:41,669 --> 00:29:39,440
mps start making parliamentary questions

815
00:29:44,710 --> 00:29:41,679
the end of 1991

816
00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:44,720
beginning of 1992 what a coincidence of

817
00:29:49,269 --> 00:29:46,720
that coincidence

818
00:29:52,070 --> 00:29:49,279
was the second re-tasking

819
00:29:53,830 --> 00:29:52,080
uh by di55 they sent the images to

820
00:29:55,990 --> 00:29:53,840
jarrett now that suggests to me they had

821
00:29:57,669 --> 00:29:56,000
those images they suspected

822
00:30:00,070 --> 00:29:57,679
that this was some kind of american

823
00:30:01,750 --> 00:30:00,080
experimental aircraft and just to be

824
00:30:03,590 --> 00:30:01,760
sure they sent them for a second

825
00:30:05,269 --> 00:30:03,600
analysis and this has all been confirmed

826
00:30:08,950 --> 00:30:05,279
by my contact in the defense

827
00:30:11,430 --> 00:30:08,960
intelligence staff who said um yes

828
00:30:13,029 --> 00:30:11,440
it was it was taken very seriously and

829
00:30:14,870 --> 00:30:13,039
it was an absolute miracle that we

830
00:30:17,669 --> 00:30:14,880
managed to keep it out of the media at

831
00:30:20,870 --> 00:30:17,679
the time this particular year

832
00:30:23,909 --> 00:30:20,880
um that the second task the the the they

833
00:30:25,510 --> 00:30:23,919
got these detailed images they flew

834
00:30:27,430 --> 00:30:25,520
there was a group of them that flew to

835
00:30:30,789 --> 00:30:27,440
washington to meet with their opposite

836
00:30:32,470 --> 00:30:30,799
numbers in the um cia yeah

837
00:30:34,870 --> 00:30:32,480
and they showed them these images and

838
00:30:36,389 --> 00:30:34,880
initially they'd said i saw nonsense

839
00:30:37,590 --> 00:30:36,399
it's this aurora thing you know it's a

840
00:30:39,590 --> 00:30:37,600
complete myth

841
00:30:42,389 --> 00:30:39,600
and apparently this if the story if this

842
00:30:43,909 --> 00:30:42,399
story is true and maybe having my leg

843
00:30:44,789 --> 00:30:43,919
pulled but i've had this confirmed now

844
00:30:47,029 --> 00:30:44,799
by

845
00:30:49,510 --> 00:30:47,039
three other sources because i initially

846
00:30:51,430 --> 00:30:49,520
i came to the conclusion that

847
00:30:53,669 --> 00:30:51,440
a hoax i thought the only thing that

848
00:30:55,750 --> 00:30:53,679
that made any sense was that um the

849
00:30:59,830 --> 00:30:55,760
photographs were a spoof yeah because

850
00:31:01,190 --> 00:30:59,840
various other sources were telling me um

851
00:31:02,549 --> 00:31:01,200
it was looked at and it was determined

852
00:31:03,750 --> 00:31:02,559
it was a hoax but

853
00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:03,760
i think the preponderance of the

854
00:31:08,310 --> 00:31:06,480
evidence now is not that it's a hoax

855
00:31:10,950 --> 00:31:08,320
that it was some kind of a genuine

856
00:31:12,789 --> 00:31:10,960
photograph and it was of an experimental

857
00:31:14,230 --> 00:31:12,799
aircraft now

858
00:31:16,149 --> 00:31:14,240
there's a lot of unanswered questions

859
00:31:18,549 --> 00:31:16,159
here is why is the photographer never

860
00:31:20,630 --> 00:31:18,559
come forward yeah because those

861
00:31:21,990 --> 00:31:20,640
photographs are worth the fortune they

862
00:31:23,350 --> 00:31:22,000
are they are

863
00:31:25,909 --> 00:31:23,360
if you listen to the nick perk they are

864
00:31:28,310 --> 00:31:25,919
the best photographs he's ever seen yeah

865
00:31:31,269 --> 00:31:28,320
absolutely still sticks to the line that

866
00:31:32,389 --> 00:31:31,279
it's a genuine unknown

867
00:31:34,789 --> 00:31:32,399
he does yeah

868
00:31:36,789 --> 00:31:34,799
he does but i spoke to him about a month

869
00:31:38,789 --> 00:31:36,799
ago and he did he did say that

870
00:31:40,630 --> 00:31:38,799
yeah that's his belief but it's not

871
00:31:42,310 --> 00:31:40,640
based upon anything other than his

872
00:31:44,630 --> 00:31:42,320
impressions of seeing them because

873
00:31:47,990 --> 00:31:44,640
whatever he says he did not have top

874
00:31:49,509 --> 00:31:48,000
secret clearance so whatever di55

875
00:31:51,269 --> 00:31:49,519
discovered about the photographs he

876
00:31:53,029 --> 00:31:51,279
wouldn't have been told about it

877
00:31:54,789 --> 00:31:53,039
and if he hadn't been told about it he

878
00:31:56,070 --> 00:31:54,799
wouldn't be allowed to say so

879
00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:56,080
and he didn't he didn't work for the

880
00:31:59,750 --> 00:31:58,559
i-55 at all did he have access to any of

881
00:32:00,710 --> 00:31:59,760
their work

882
00:32:02,549 --> 00:32:00,720
no no

883
00:32:04,870 --> 00:32:02,559
he spoke to um

884
00:32:07,269 --> 00:32:04,880
a guy called di55c

885
00:32:09,590 --> 00:32:07,279
whose identity i knew

886
00:32:14,549 --> 00:32:12,470
he was his he was the ufo desk officer

887
00:32:15,830 --> 00:32:14,559
at the 55 and i think this is what a lot

888
00:32:16,950 --> 00:32:15,840
of people just can't get their heads

889
00:32:18,870 --> 00:32:16,960
around that

890
00:32:20,549 --> 00:32:18,880
because nick pope is the only person

891
00:32:22,710 --> 00:32:20,559
who's been willing to talk about this

892
00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:22,720
subject he gets all the attention and

893
00:32:26,389 --> 00:32:24,640
because he's so media friendly everybody

894
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:26,399
goes to him which is fine which is fine

895
00:32:31,350 --> 00:32:29,279
but all you're hearing is one tiny

896
00:32:33,590 --> 00:32:31,360
little part of the real story and when

897
00:32:35,669 --> 00:32:33,600
you talk to all the other people who

898
00:32:38,389 --> 00:32:35,679
don't want to talk to the media yeah you

899
00:32:40,230 --> 00:32:38,399
just say i'm not going down that road

900
00:32:41,990 --> 00:32:40,240
i look for you off the record because i

901
00:32:44,630 --> 00:32:42,000
think you're a sensible journalist who's

902
00:32:46,789 --> 00:32:44,640
not trying to do anything sensational

903
00:32:48,230 --> 00:32:46,799
but this is what i get told is i'll talk

904
00:32:50,470 --> 00:32:48,240
to you i'll tell you this it's off the

905
00:32:52,710 --> 00:32:50,480
record it's non-attributable do not use

906
00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:52,720
my name and as a journalist i wouldn't

907
00:32:56,230 --> 00:32:54,880
use the name of course of course um

908
00:32:58,070 --> 00:32:56,240
because you have to you have to protect

909
00:32:59,830 --> 00:32:58,080
your sources so

910
00:33:01,430 --> 00:32:59,840
i'm put in this difficult position where

911
00:33:03,909 --> 00:33:01,440
i'm having to say

912
00:33:05,430 --> 00:33:03,919
this is actually what happened but i

913
00:33:06,789 --> 00:33:05,440
can't prove it because the person

914
00:33:08,710 --> 00:33:06,799
telling me won't

915
00:33:11,669 --> 00:33:08,720
go on the record and he won't speak to

916
00:33:12,710 --> 00:33:11,679
the media in the way that nick will

917
00:33:15,269 --> 00:33:12,720
so

918
00:33:16,950 --> 00:33:15,279
all i can tell you is after um i mean

919
00:33:19,269 --> 00:33:16,960
i've been looking i mean

920
00:33:20,630 --> 00:33:19,279
if i take 2009 as the first time i

921
00:33:22,950 --> 00:33:20,640
looked into this i mean i've been

922
00:33:24,470 --> 00:33:22,960
looking on and off into this story now

923
00:33:25,830 --> 00:33:24,480
for

924
00:33:27,830 --> 00:33:25,840
12 years

925
00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:27,840
and speaking to various people over that

926
00:33:31,269 --> 00:33:29,120
time

927
00:33:34,230 --> 00:33:31,279
and my best

928
00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:34,240
assessment of it is it was

929
00:33:39,909 --> 00:33:37,360
some kind of us experimental aircraft

930
00:33:42,389 --> 00:33:39,919
that these guys and in the words of this

931
00:33:45,350 --> 00:33:42,399
source were in the right place at the

932
00:33:47,190 --> 00:33:45,360
wrong time one in a million chance

933
00:33:49,190 --> 00:33:47,200
that just happened to be there when this

934
00:33:52,950 --> 00:33:49,200
thing appeared and they had a good slr

935
00:33:54,149 --> 00:33:52,960
camera and captured the images now by by

936
00:33:55,110 --> 00:33:54,159
one of these

937
00:33:56,149 --> 00:33:55,120
weird

938
00:33:57,830 --> 00:33:56,159
things

939
00:34:00,389 --> 00:33:57,840
you know like it's almost like in an

940
00:34:01,750 --> 00:34:00,399
alternative universe if let me put it

941
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:01,760
you put it this way

942
00:34:06,950 --> 00:34:04,320
if a certain person hadn't been on

943
00:34:09,750 --> 00:34:06,960
annual leave at the time from his job on

944
00:34:12,149 --> 00:34:09,760
the daily record

945
00:34:14,629 --> 00:34:12,159
those photographs would have been opened

946
00:34:15,589 --> 00:34:14,639
by this person who was the news editor

947
00:34:17,669 --> 00:34:15,599
right

948
00:34:20,149 --> 00:34:17,679
he would have splashed them all over the

949
00:34:22,389 --> 00:34:20,159
front next the front page of the daily

950
00:34:23,909 --> 00:34:22,399
record the next morning and we wouldn't

951
00:34:25,349 --> 00:34:23,919
be having this conversation now because

952
00:34:27,589 --> 00:34:25,359
we'd all know what these photographs

953
00:34:28,950 --> 00:34:27,599
look like yeah and what the object was

954
00:34:30,550 --> 00:34:28,960
and

955
00:34:35,349 --> 00:34:30,560
but

956
00:34:40,069 --> 00:34:37,510
a picture editor and i think

957
00:34:41,990 --> 00:34:40,079
because this person's dead

958
00:34:43,909 --> 00:34:42,000
i'm not gonna i'm not gonna defame him

959
00:34:46,790 --> 00:34:43,919
or anything by saying who he was and his

960
00:34:49,030 --> 00:34:46,800
name was andy allen he was the editor on

961
00:34:51,109 --> 00:34:49,040
the daily record he died in two

962
00:34:53,669 --> 00:34:51,119
about 10 years ago

963
00:34:55,589 --> 00:34:53,679
and according to my sources

964
00:34:56,710 --> 00:34:55,599
he received these photographs from the

965
00:34:58,310 --> 00:34:56,720
witnesses

966
00:35:00,069 --> 00:34:58,320
and without telling the editor of the

967
00:35:02,390 --> 00:35:00,079
newspaper without telling the news

968
00:35:04,870 --> 00:35:02,400
editor he was off on holiday he sent the

969
00:35:07,109 --> 00:35:04,880
lot to the ministry of defense didn't

970
00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:07,119
even make a note of the name of the

971
00:35:11,829 --> 00:35:09,200
person who'd taken the photographs he

972
00:35:13,510 --> 00:35:11,839
delivered everything directly on a plate

973
00:35:16,470 --> 00:35:13,520
to the ministry of defense and the

974
00:35:19,349 --> 00:35:16,480
ministry of defense you can imagine

975
00:35:20,630 --> 00:35:19,359
could not believe their luck

976
00:35:22,470 --> 00:35:20,640
since then

977
00:35:24,069 --> 00:35:22,480
they've been able to avoid having

978
00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:24,079
getting anything in the media about it

979
00:35:28,069 --> 00:35:26,160
well at the time anyway

980
00:35:30,310 --> 00:35:28,079
that's the story i've been told

981
00:35:31,990 --> 00:35:30,320
and having spoken to the people directly

982
00:35:33,829 --> 00:35:32,000
concerned i'm convinced that's what

983
00:35:35,829 --> 00:35:33,839
happened so there was no there was no d

984
00:35:37,829 --> 00:35:35,839
notice because there was nothing to be

985
00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:37,839
noticed yeah absolutely all the

986
00:35:41,670 --> 00:35:39,760
newspaper had was

987
00:35:42,950 --> 00:35:41,680
a story because eventually it leaked out

988
00:35:45,510 --> 00:35:42,960
what happened

989
00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:45,520
this this this picture editor guy it

990
00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:47,280
came out they sent these images to the

991
00:35:50,470 --> 00:35:48,560
ministry of defense and he thought they

992
00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:50,480
were he thought they were fakes

993
00:35:54,150 --> 00:35:52,240
basically yeah and he was told

994
00:35:56,470 --> 00:35:54,160
apparently that oh the thing in the

995
00:35:58,390 --> 00:35:56,480
photographs it's just a cloud formation

996
00:35:59,910 --> 00:35:58,400
don't worry

997
00:36:02,150 --> 00:35:59,920
so so the newspaper was left

998
00:36:03,910 --> 00:36:02,160
empty-handed what would it do it's

999
00:36:06,550 --> 00:36:03,920
embarrassed about the situation even

1000
00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:06,560
today because it was given the story and

1001
00:36:09,670 --> 00:36:08,320
gave it away

1002
00:36:11,270 --> 00:36:09,680
that's unbelievable

1003
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:11,280
a story about this amazing ufo

1004
00:36:14,630 --> 00:36:12,960
photographs that you have that gave away

1005
00:36:17,190 --> 00:36:14,640
to the ministry of defense yes that's i

1006
00:36:19,910 --> 00:36:17,200
mean that's unbelievable you know

1007
00:36:22,630 --> 00:36:19,920
no copies or anything just sending the i

1008
00:36:24,390 --> 00:36:22,640
mean the ministry of defense now says

1009
00:36:26,390 --> 00:36:24,400
and no doubt they're telling the truth

1010
00:36:28,390 --> 00:36:26,400
that we looked at the photographs

1011
00:36:30,230 --> 00:36:28,400
that our experts determined that there

1012
00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:30,240
was nothing of defence significance on

1013
00:36:34,390 --> 00:36:32,400
them which is perfectly true if it was

1014
00:36:35,910 --> 00:36:34,400
an american aircraft because yeah it

1015
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:35,920
wasn't a threat

1016
00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:38,640
because they knew what it was yeah so

1017
00:36:42,069 --> 00:36:40,320
in order to cover their tracks they've

1018
00:36:43,910 --> 00:36:42,079
destroyed all the prints and they've

1019
00:36:46,069 --> 00:36:43,920
sent the negatives back to the

1020
00:36:48,150 --> 00:36:46,079
photographer who is the copyright holder

1021
00:36:49,750 --> 00:36:48,160
and that person for whatever reason

1022
00:36:52,550 --> 00:36:49,760
whether he's been told keep your mouth

1023
00:36:54,550 --> 00:36:52,560
shut or he's been given some money or is

1024
00:36:55,910 --> 00:36:54,560
dead or he's moved away

1025
00:36:57,190 --> 00:36:55,920
he's decided

1026
00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:57,200
not to talk

1027
00:36:59,670 --> 00:36:58,000
so

1028
00:37:01,270 --> 00:36:59,680
what more can we do

1029
00:37:02,310 --> 00:37:01,280
i mean

1030
00:37:08,790 --> 00:37:02,320
you

1031
00:37:10,230 --> 00:37:08,800
worked out where the person worked

1032
00:37:12,069 --> 00:37:10,240
is there any way of finding i don't know

1033
00:37:14,470 --> 00:37:12,079
if it's a big company or a small company

1034
00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:14,480
is there any way of doing old school

1035
00:37:22,710 --> 00:37:20,069
and yeah dead end no one remembers

1036
00:37:25,190 --> 00:37:22,720
anything about it so

1037
00:37:26,550 --> 00:37:25,200
if if um if it's true

1038
00:37:30,150 --> 00:37:26,560
where this person works and have no

1039
00:37:32,710 --> 00:37:30,160
reason to think it's not true yeah um

1040
00:37:34,550 --> 00:37:32,720
he obviously did a very good job of not

1041
00:37:37,589 --> 00:37:34,560
telling his his work the people he

1042
00:37:40,470 --> 00:37:37,599
worked with or his boss

1043
00:37:42,069 --> 00:37:40,480
yeah i mean is there

1044
00:37:44,550 --> 00:37:42,079
is a way do they have records of the

1045
00:37:47,950 --> 00:37:44,560
people worked at the company that year

1046
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:54,710
[Laughter]

1047
00:37:57,829 --> 00:37:56,710
by which point he will be dead

1048
00:37:59,750 --> 00:37:57,839
definitely

1049
00:38:02,230 --> 00:37:59,760
most of us will be dead as well so i

1050
00:38:05,270 --> 00:38:02,240
think this is like a

1051
00:38:07,270 --> 00:38:05,280
mystery that will never be solved unless

1052
00:38:10,470 --> 00:38:07,280
someone can force the ministry of

1053
00:38:12,150 --> 00:38:10,480
defense or the cia who we know has got

1054
00:38:14,150 --> 00:38:12,160
copies of these um

1055
00:38:15,589 --> 00:38:14,160
prints yeah or whatever it was that was

1056
00:38:18,950 --> 00:38:15,599
taken from them

1057
00:38:20,470 --> 00:38:18,960
someone in one of those agencies has got

1058
00:38:21,990 --> 00:38:20,480
even if they haven't got the prince even

1059
00:38:23,670 --> 00:38:22,000
if they destroyed the prince there's got

1060
00:38:24,710 --> 00:38:23,680
to be more paperwork about this

1061
00:38:26,950 --> 00:38:24,720
absolutely

1062
00:38:29,270 --> 00:38:26,960
whoever it was who did the analysis

1063
00:38:31,190 --> 00:38:29,280
said we looked at this it's definitely

1064
00:38:33,510 --> 00:38:31,200
this aircraft that we're not allowed to

1065
00:38:35,990 --> 00:38:33,520
talk about but what they'll say is is

1066
00:38:37,910 --> 00:38:36,000
covered by section 27

1067
00:38:39,589 --> 00:38:37,920
uh which covers international relations

1068
00:38:41,750 --> 00:38:39,599
so the americans won't release anything

1069
00:38:43,109 --> 00:38:41,760
that's got to do with british security

1070
00:38:45,109 --> 00:38:43,119
and the british won't release anything

1071
00:38:46,950 --> 00:38:45,119
to do with the americans so you go into

1072
00:38:49,030 --> 00:38:46,960
this circular

1073
00:38:50,470 --> 00:38:49,040
thing where they're just saying sorry

1074
00:38:52,310 --> 00:38:50,480
it's exempt

1075
00:38:54,470 --> 00:38:52,320
but even if they were to say yes we do

1076
00:38:56,870 --> 00:38:54,480
have information on this case on these

1077
00:38:59,430 --> 00:38:56,880
photographs but it's covered by section

1078
00:39:00,790 --> 00:38:59,440
26 and section 27 that in effect is an

1079
00:39:02,870 --> 00:39:00,800
admission that

1080
00:39:04,470 --> 00:39:02,880
that they know what it was and it's top

1081
00:39:06,470 --> 00:39:04,480
secret aircraft

1082
00:39:07,990 --> 00:39:06,480
yeah that makes sense i mean just by you

1083
00:39:09,349 --> 00:39:08,000
can deduce that from all the information

1084
00:39:11,430 --> 00:39:09,359
yeah of course

1085
00:39:14,630 --> 00:39:11,440
so that is a very very complicated

1086
00:39:16,310 --> 00:39:14,640
roundabout way but i mean again back to

1087
00:39:18,230 --> 00:39:16,320
the beginning we wouldn't know about

1088
00:39:19,670 --> 00:39:18,240
this if it wasn't for nick talking about

1089
00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:19,680
it well we would know about it but we

1090
00:39:24,870 --> 00:39:21,280
wouldn't have found out about it until

1091
00:39:26,069 --> 00:39:24,880
2009 yeah with those documents

1092
00:39:28,150 --> 00:39:26,079
so

1093
00:39:30,390 --> 00:39:28,160
i've had my disagreements with nick over

1094
00:39:32,390 --> 00:39:30,400
many many things but i actually i think

1095
00:39:34,310 --> 00:39:32,400
he deserves some credit for this because

1096
00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:34,320
he somehow managed to get a mention of

1097
00:39:37,510 --> 00:39:35,760
that story

1098
00:39:39,990 --> 00:39:37,520
into his book and i don't know it's

1099
00:39:43,270 --> 00:39:40,000
because the various people the di people

1100
00:39:45,670 --> 00:39:43,280
didn't actually spot that particular

1101
00:39:47,030 --> 00:39:45,680
passage or if they did

1102
00:39:48,550 --> 00:39:47,040
they thought well we've got this wrapped

1103
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:48,560
up so well that no one's ever going to

1104
00:39:51,829 --> 00:39:50,240
be able to find these pictures anyway

1105
00:39:53,430 --> 00:39:51,839
and they were right

1106
00:39:56,310 --> 00:39:53,440
is there a chance nick pope had some

1107
00:40:00,230 --> 00:39:56,320
connections in di55 that off the record

1108
00:40:02,710 --> 00:40:00,240
or backhanding information

1109
00:40:04,069 --> 00:40:02,720
well various people have tried to um

1110
00:40:05,750 --> 00:40:04,079
various people have

1111
00:40:08,069 --> 00:40:05,760
asked him about this but because he's

1112
00:40:10,230 --> 00:40:08,079
subject to the official secrets act he

1113
00:40:12,630 --> 00:40:10,240
won't even say who the name of his boss

1114
00:40:15,030 --> 00:40:12,640
was never mind anything about di55

1115
00:40:17,030 --> 00:40:15,040
because his pension depends on it

1116
00:40:19,190 --> 00:40:17,040
well like myself i'm not subject to

1117
00:40:20,950 --> 00:40:19,200
official secrets so no you know i'm

1118
00:40:23,589 --> 00:40:20,960
someone who old-fashioned journalist

1119
00:40:25,430 --> 00:40:23,599
style if i find out who this person is

1120
00:40:26,950 --> 00:40:25,440
who took the photographs i'll i'll be

1121
00:40:28,390 --> 00:40:26,960
outside his house tomorrow morning with

1122
00:40:29,990 --> 00:40:28,400
my foot in the door because that's what

1123
00:40:32,069 --> 00:40:30,000
i do as a journalist and i'll find some

1124
00:40:32,790 --> 00:40:32,079
way of prising the information out of

1125
00:40:34,309 --> 00:40:32,800
them

1126
00:40:36,150 --> 00:40:34,319
um

1127
00:40:37,270 --> 00:40:36,160
i just i just think there's got to come

1128
00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:37,280
a time

1129
00:40:40,950 --> 00:40:39,280
i mean a lot of people i've spoken to in

1130
00:40:42,950 --> 00:40:40,960
connection with this case

1131
00:40:44,790 --> 00:40:42,960
they are really do they do actually seem

1132
00:40:46,630 --> 00:40:44,800
to be quite worried about official

1133
00:40:48,790 --> 00:40:46,640
secrets and i just think

1134
00:40:50,069 --> 00:40:48,800
this is something that happened 30 years

1135
00:40:52,710 --> 00:40:50,079
ago

1136
00:40:54,550 --> 00:40:52,720
i mean it can't possibly be

1137
00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:54,560
covered by official secrets act after

1138
00:40:58,550 --> 00:40:56,560
all that time and i said this to this

1139
00:41:00,710 --> 00:40:58,560
guy to these guys in

1140
00:41:02,950 --> 00:41:00,720
these intelligences spooks

1141
00:41:04,150 --> 00:41:02,960
and the guy said oh well you know

1142
00:41:05,910 --> 00:41:04,160
i've never seen

1143
00:41:07,430 --> 00:41:05,920
an open source image of this thing that

1144
00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:07,440
was photographed

1145
00:41:16,710 --> 00:41:15,349
the black manta was it the tr3

1146
00:41:17,990 --> 00:41:16,720
you know all these different sort of

1147
00:41:20,630 --> 00:41:18,000
spooky

1148
00:41:22,630 --> 00:41:20,640
spy plane things that are on the um

1149
00:41:25,589 --> 00:41:22,640
on the drawing board yeah and i said

1150
00:41:29,349 --> 00:41:25,599
surely something that that existed in in

1151
00:41:32,790 --> 00:41:29,359
in 1990 must have been publicly flown or

1152
00:41:35,030 --> 00:41:32,800
operated but and apparently not now they

1153
00:41:37,270 --> 00:41:35,040
say well you know that

1154
00:41:39,030 --> 00:41:37,280
i think the phrase he used was it

1155
00:41:41,109 --> 00:41:39,040
something that began life

1156
00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:41,119
you know on the back of a [\h__\h] packet you

1157
00:41:44,870 --> 00:41:42,960
know sort of a sketch

1158
00:41:47,670 --> 00:41:44,880
it can take more than 30 years for that

1159
00:41:49,910 --> 00:41:47,680
to be i suppose i mean how long did it

1160
00:41:54,550 --> 00:41:49,920
take for the um the original stealth

1161
00:41:56,870 --> 00:41:54,560
fighter and the b2 bomber to be publicly

1162
00:41:58,870 --> 00:41:56,880
revealed after it had been

1163
00:42:01,109 --> 00:41:58,880
test flown i mean a number of years but

1164
00:42:03,750 --> 00:42:01,119
certainly not 30 years no i'd probably

1165
00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:03,760
say what 10 12 15 max

1166
00:42:06,950 --> 00:42:06,000
yeah i mean i remember that i mean i'm i

1167
00:42:09,190 --> 00:42:06,960
think i'm a little bit younger than

1168
00:42:11,030 --> 00:42:09,200
yourself but i i remember that vividly

1169
00:42:13,270 --> 00:42:11,040
the unveiling in that and

1170
00:42:15,109 --> 00:42:13,280
80s i think it wasn't it yeah but right

1171
00:42:17,670 --> 00:42:15,119
at the end i must have been 89 something

1172
00:42:19,349 --> 00:42:17,680
like that but yeah i mean that's yeah

1173
00:42:21,910 --> 00:42:19,359
that makes sense we've been flying

1174
00:42:24,150 --> 00:42:21,920
prototype suddenly since late 70s so

1175
00:42:25,589 --> 00:42:24,160
we're talking about 10 years

1176
00:42:27,829 --> 00:42:25,599
but whatever this thing was that was

1177
00:42:29,349 --> 00:42:27,839
flying around over the scottish islands

1178
00:42:30,710 --> 00:42:29,359
uh apparently we're not allowed to see

1179
00:42:32,870 --> 00:42:30,720
it 30 years

1180
00:42:34,630 --> 00:42:32,880
later which seems a bit strange to me

1181
00:42:36,390 --> 00:42:34,640
but

1182
00:42:38,069 --> 00:42:36,400
what i was told was that the americans

1183
00:42:39,430 --> 00:42:38,079
first denied

1184
00:42:41,589 --> 00:42:39,440
that

1185
00:42:44,150 --> 00:42:41,599
this was theirs and there's a there's an

1186
00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:44,160
even more bizarre episode that went on

1187
00:42:48,870 --> 00:42:46,240
which i can tell you about

1188
00:42:52,710 --> 00:42:50,790
i've got these i managed to get these

1189
00:42:54,710 --> 00:42:52,720
documents released on the freedom of

1190
00:42:56,230 --> 00:42:54,720
information because i put in a load of

1191
00:42:58,790 --> 00:42:56,240
freedom of information requests on

1192
00:43:01,190 --> 00:42:58,800
aurora i didn't mention calvin

1193
00:43:03,270 --> 00:43:01,200
okay those requests and i got this

1194
00:43:06,390 --> 00:43:03,280
dossier of

1195
00:43:09,910 --> 00:43:06,400
of um letters that have been sent from

1196
00:43:12,470 --> 00:43:09,920
our attache in washington dc

1197
00:43:14,710 --> 00:43:12,480
raf eritashi part of the british defense

1198
00:43:15,750 --> 00:43:14,720
staff so you know all go all all the

1199
00:43:18,069 --> 00:43:15,760
different countries have different

1200
00:43:19,589 --> 00:43:18,079
heritages in each other's countries who

1201
00:43:20,950 --> 00:43:19,599
talk to each other

1202
00:43:22,630 --> 00:43:20,960
and and it's

1203
00:43:24,950 --> 00:43:22,640
it's a series of memos

1204
00:43:27,510 --> 00:43:24,960
titled something like um

1205
00:43:31,030 --> 00:43:27,520
something about unusual experimental

1206
00:43:32,309 --> 00:43:31,040
platform flying in uk airspace and it's

1207
00:43:34,870 --> 00:43:32,319
it's basically

1208
00:43:37,990 --> 00:43:34,880
our chat in washington who's seen all

1209
00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:38,000
the stuff in james defence weekly and in

1210
00:43:43,030 --> 00:43:40,880
um the scotsman about these mysterious

1211
00:43:45,190 --> 00:43:43,040
things flying around macrohanish

1212
00:43:46,950 --> 00:43:45,200
and basically saying the americans are

1213
00:43:48,470 --> 00:43:46,960
doing the nut about it and they think

1214
00:43:50,470 --> 00:43:48,480
it's one of our

1215
00:43:52,470 --> 00:43:50,480
experimental aircraft

1216
00:43:55,670 --> 00:43:52,480
um they think because because the

1217
00:43:58,309 --> 00:43:55,680
british had access to the um the secret

1218
00:43:59,589 --> 00:43:58,319
stealth technology they gave us access

1219
00:44:02,790 --> 00:43:59,599
to it

1220
00:44:05,270 --> 00:44:02,800
and our pilots raf pilots were flying

1221
00:44:06,870 --> 00:44:05,280
the stealth bomber and flat see

1222
00:44:08,550 --> 00:44:06,880
it's had been admitted now but at the

1223
00:44:10,870 --> 00:44:08,560
time it was top secret

1224
00:44:12,069 --> 00:44:10,880
so they actually suspected that we'd

1225
00:44:14,630 --> 00:44:12,079
stolen

1226
00:44:16,230 --> 00:44:14,640
some of their secrets and have developed

1227
00:44:18,630 --> 00:44:16,240
our own raf

1228
00:44:20,790 --> 00:44:18,640
stealth airplane and that we were flying

1229
00:44:22,870 --> 00:44:20,800
this round in scotland

1230
00:44:24,710 --> 00:44:22,880
and what apparently happened this just

1231
00:44:26,630 --> 00:44:24,720
shows you what

1232
00:44:29,010 --> 00:44:26,640
when you get into the world of secret

1233
00:44:30,390 --> 00:44:29,020
intelligence it's not very intelligent

1234
00:44:32,630 --> 00:44:30,400
[Laughter]

1235
00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:32,640
it doesn't sound like it weapons of mass

1236
00:44:37,510 --> 00:44:34,640
destruction we're talking about the iraq

1237
00:44:39,510 --> 00:44:37,520
war you know they believe the fantasies

1238
00:44:41,910 --> 00:44:39,520
of this chap in iraq

1239
00:44:43,670 --> 00:44:41,920
who for his own interests wanted to get

1240
00:44:45,589 --> 00:44:43,680
at saddam hussein now so he spread this

1241
00:44:47,030 --> 00:44:45,599
story to the intelligence services that

1242
00:44:48,870 --> 00:44:47,040
yeah they've got all these fantastic

1243
00:44:50,870 --> 00:44:48,880
weapons which now know that they but

1244
00:44:53,589 --> 00:44:50,880
they fell for it so this is why i'm

1245
00:44:55,430 --> 00:44:53,599
skeptical of all this stuff about well

1246
00:44:57,349 --> 00:44:55,440
if the intelligence services say this it

1247
00:44:59,910 --> 00:44:57,359
must be true which is one of nick pope's

1248
00:45:02,069 --> 00:44:59,920
lines that when they looked at

1249
00:45:03,829 --> 00:45:02,079
these photographs the kelvin pictures

1250
00:45:06,710 --> 00:45:03,839
because it had been authenticated by

1251
00:45:08,470 --> 00:45:06,720
idea by the dis it must be true

1252
00:45:10,150 --> 00:45:08,480
because they couldn't possibly you

1253
00:45:12,630 --> 00:45:10,160
couldn't possibly be fooled by two

1254
00:45:14,390 --> 00:45:12,640
ordinary guys and an sll camera that's

1255
00:45:15,829 --> 00:45:14,400
why i i thought

1256
00:45:18,710 --> 00:45:15,839
well i've heard that one before

1257
00:45:20,630 --> 00:45:18,720
absolutely i'm losing the threat

1258
00:45:22,230 --> 00:45:20,640
well what seems to what seems to have

1259
00:45:24,150 --> 00:45:22,240
happened is you know they did that

1260
00:45:25,510 --> 00:45:24,160
re-tasking of the images

1261
00:45:27,950 --> 00:45:25,520
yeah

1262
00:45:32,150 --> 00:45:27,960
well sometime in 1992

1263
00:45:35,190 --> 00:45:32,160
di55 sent the calvin photograph to the

1264
00:45:37,750 --> 00:45:35,200
cia or the d.i.a or whatever it was

1265
00:45:39,190 --> 00:45:37,760
their opposite numbers yeah the dia

1266
00:45:41,750 --> 00:45:39,200
having looked at it and thought what's

1267
00:45:43,270 --> 00:45:41,760
this you know then sent it to the

1268
00:45:46,790 --> 00:45:43,280
pentagon

1269
00:45:48,630 --> 00:45:46,800
people who sent it to them were the

1270
00:45:50,069 --> 00:45:48,640
british

1271
00:45:51,510 --> 00:45:50,079
right and they said oh this is something

1272
00:45:53,270 --> 00:45:51,520
that's been photographed in the scottish

1273
00:45:54,790 --> 00:45:53,280
islands it looks like some top secret

1274
00:45:56,470 --> 00:45:54,800
experimental aircraft perhaps it's

1275
00:46:00,309 --> 00:45:56,480
something the raf

1276
00:46:03,430 --> 00:46:00,319
have developed so this guy who um i

1277
00:46:06,069 --> 00:46:03,440
spoke to he's a former um vulcan bomber

1278
00:46:07,829 --> 00:46:06,079
uh commander yeah simon baldwin i'm

1279
00:46:09,990 --> 00:46:07,839
saying his name because he's on my blog

1280
00:46:12,150 --> 00:46:10,000
i spoke to him about it he was the

1281
00:46:13,589 --> 00:46:12,160
person at the british embassy who was

1282
00:46:15,030 --> 00:46:13,599
dragged into the pentagon and said

1283
00:46:17,670 --> 00:46:15,040
what's all this

1284
00:46:19,670 --> 00:46:17,680
you know he was shown the photograph

1285
00:46:21,349 --> 00:46:19,680
you know um are you flying something

1286
00:46:24,470 --> 00:46:21,359
experimental that you told us about

1287
00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:24,480
using our technology and he said no

1288
00:46:30,790 --> 00:46:29,349
and that's in all the letters so he's

1289
00:46:31,990 --> 00:46:30,800
writing back to the mod saying i've just

1290
00:46:33,670 --> 00:46:32,000
been dragged into the pentagon and

1291
00:46:35,270 --> 00:46:33,680
showing this picture

1292
00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:35,280
you know what what what on earth is

1293
00:46:39,030 --> 00:46:37,440
going on and and of course this is all

1294
00:46:41,109 --> 00:46:39,040
happening with the background of the

1295
00:46:42,710 --> 00:46:41,119
stories about aurora

1296
00:46:44,470 --> 00:46:42,720
things that have been seen zooming in

1297
00:46:48,069 --> 00:46:44,480
and out and like

1298
00:46:50,069 --> 00:46:48,079
um and also there was this um

1299
00:46:51,750 --> 00:46:50,079
sighting that got into the newspapers

1300
00:46:53,109 --> 00:46:51,760
around the same time by a guy called

1301
00:46:55,030 --> 00:46:53,119
chris gibson

1302
00:46:57,270 --> 00:46:55,040
who was a member of the royal observer

1303
00:47:00,630 --> 00:46:57,280
corps and he was working on an oil rig

1304
00:47:03,829 --> 00:47:00,640
in the north sea this is late 1989

1305
00:47:05,510 --> 00:47:03,839
and he saw what he thought was initially

1306
00:47:08,230 --> 00:47:05,520
thought it was a stealth fighter of some

1307
00:47:12,069 --> 00:47:08,240
kind being escorted by a whole bunch of

1308
00:47:15,190 --> 00:47:12,079
f-111s and one of these kc-135 tankers

1309
00:47:17,030 --> 00:47:15,200
you know the mid-air refuge yeah

1310
00:47:19,270 --> 00:47:17,040
he what he looks at it and he's he was

1311
00:47:21,670 --> 00:47:19,280
an expert in aircraft um recognition and

1312
00:47:23,829 --> 00:47:21,680
he couldn't identify this object that

1313
00:47:27,270 --> 00:47:23,839
was being escorted and it was like not a

1314
00:47:29,349 --> 00:47:27,280
diamond but a very sleek triangle object

1315
00:47:31,670 --> 00:47:29,359
so he he reported this he got into the

1316
00:47:33,430 --> 00:47:31,680
independent newspaper he did sketches of

1317
00:47:35,109 --> 00:47:33,440
it he came forward unlike these

1318
00:47:37,750 --> 00:47:35,119
witnesses in scotland

1319
00:47:39,030 --> 00:47:37,760
and this is what um simon baldwin is

1320
00:47:41,510 --> 00:47:39,040
talking about

1321
00:47:44,309 --> 00:47:41,520
in his letters to the mod but he also

1322
00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:44,319
mentions a photograph taken from the

1323
00:47:48,470 --> 00:47:45,440
ground

1324
00:47:51,510 --> 00:47:48,480
somewhere in scotland near macrehanish

1325
00:47:53,750 --> 00:47:51,520
that appears to show two aircraft but

1326
00:47:55,910 --> 00:47:53,760
very blurred

1327
00:47:58,230 --> 00:47:55,920
and how lucky it is that they've managed

1328
00:47:59,750 --> 00:47:58,240
to keep this out of the media now he's

1329
00:48:01,750 --> 00:47:59,760
obviously talking about the calvin

1330
00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:01,760
photographs in that letter

1331
00:48:05,829 --> 00:48:03,839
and i had that letter for years and it

1332
00:48:08,230 --> 00:48:05,839
didn't occur to me that's what he was

1333
00:48:10,230 --> 00:48:08,240
talking about until quite recently so i

1334
00:48:12,549 --> 00:48:10,240
phoned him i phoned him up he's a he's a

1335
00:48:13,670 --> 00:48:12,559
is he all you have to do is just type

1336
00:48:15,349 --> 00:48:13,680
eritashi

1337
00:48:18,390 --> 00:48:15,359
washington into google and you have his

1338
00:48:19,990 --> 00:48:18,400
name so i just he lives near me he's

1339
00:48:22,230 --> 00:48:20,000
very well known so i just phoned him up

1340
00:48:23,750 --> 00:48:22,240
i said simon you know are you simon

1341
00:48:25,349 --> 00:48:23,760
baldwin are you the guy that's wrote

1342
00:48:27,030 --> 00:48:25,359
this letter

1343
00:48:28,870 --> 00:48:27,040
read in the letter yeah i wrote that

1344
00:48:31,109 --> 00:48:28,880
yeah and and it was like yeah yeah i saw

1345
00:48:32,790 --> 00:48:31,119
this photograph but it didn't impress me

1346
00:48:35,349 --> 00:48:32,800
i thought it was a i thought it was a

1347
00:48:36,950 --> 00:48:35,359
spoof that was it

1348
00:48:39,270 --> 00:48:36,960
and he said some top general in the

1349
00:48:40,870 --> 00:48:39,280
pentagon dragged me in um and said

1350
00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:40,880
what's what are you doing are you flying

1351
00:48:44,470 --> 00:48:42,960
this around is it one of yours

1352
00:48:46,790 --> 00:48:44,480
and he said bro of course not he said

1353
00:48:49,190 --> 00:48:46,800
the only thing it could be

1354
00:48:51,510 --> 00:48:49,200
someone sees something that like that

1355
00:48:53,670 --> 00:48:51,520
from the ground who's a civilian

1356
00:48:56,230 --> 00:48:53,680
we've only got one operational vulcan

1357
00:48:59,670 --> 00:48:56,240
bomber which you may have seen it

1358
00:49:00,790 --> 00:48:59,680
occasionally leaves its museum

1359
00:49:03,430 --> 00:49:00,800
yeah

1360
00:49:04,710 --> 00:49:03,440
now i suppose if you saw that and you

1361
00:49:06,790 --> 00:49:04,720
you didn't know what it was you might

1362
00:49:09,270 --> 00:49:06,800
think it's some huge you know sort of

1363
00:49:13,109 --> 00:49:09,280
sleep v-shaped thing yeah

1364
00:49:16,790 --> 00:49:13,119
they know where that is every day

1365
00:49:18,069 --> 00:49:16,800
it wasn't flying over calvin in 1990 the

1366
00:49:20,710 --> 00:49:18,079
only other thing it could have been was

1367
00:49:22,470 --> 00:49:20,720
a tornado with its wings swept back

1368
00:49:23,349 --> 00:49:22,480
unlikely

1369
00:49:25,829 --> 00:49:23,359
so

1370
00:49:27,750 --> 00:49:25,839
if you read the letters basically it

1371
00:49:29,190 --> 00:49:27,760
comes to nothing and

1372
00:49:31,190 --> 00:49:29,200
they just they just say oh it's another

1373
00:49:31,990 --> 00:49:31,200
one of them aurora stories

1374
00:49:34,150 --> 00:49:32,000
so

1375
00:49:35,829 --> 00:49:34,160
i'm sure what simon's telling me is on

1376
00:49:37,670 --> 00:49:35,839
the record but but the thing is what you

1377
00:49:40,309 --> 00:49:37,680
need to understand about the military is

1378
00:49:41,829 --> 00:49:40,319
it's totally compartmentalized in that

1379
00:49:43,750 --> 00:49:41,839
some people

1380
00:49:45,430 --> 00:49:43,760
depending upon your security clearance

1381
00:49:47,190 --> 00:49:45,440
when you worked in a certain person you

1382
00:49:49,910 --> 00:49:47,200
would only have access to information

1383
00:49:51,750 --> 00:49:49,920
that you that you have the need to know

1384
00:49:53,349 --> 00:49:51,760
at the time you're in that post and this

1385
00:49:54,230 --> 00:49:53,359
is where we've got a problem with nick

1386
00:49:56,870 --> 00:49:54,240
pope

1387
00:49:58,470 --> 00:49:56,880
because all he knows is what he knows

1388
00:50:01,109 --> 00:49:58,480
yeah in that

1389
00:50:03,190 --> 00:50:01,119
he started that job in 1991 there was a

1390
00:50:04,630 --> 00:50:03,200
blow up of this image on the wall when

1391
00:50:06,630 --> 00:50:04,640
he when he went into the office he

1392
00:50:09,270 --> 00:50:06,640
obviously took spoke to owen hartop

1393
00:50:11,750 --> 00:50:09,280
about it yeah and the bit of information

1394
00:50:13,910 --> 00:50:11,760
about what these men saw

1395
00:50:16,549 --> 00:50:13,920
and what happened to those images he's

1396
00:50:19,030 --> 00:50:16,559
gleaned from talking to owen and his

1397
00:50:21,270 --> 00:50:19,040
this guy in di55 but that is all he

1398
00:50:23,190 --> 00:50:21,280
knows and because he's

1399
00:50:25,270 --> 00:50:23,200
he's someone who who

1400
00:50:27,589 --> 00:50:25,280
wants to believe he says this himself

1401
00:50:29,030 --> 00:50:27,599
there's all the whole all these x-files

1402
00:50:31,270 --> 00:50:29,040
things that he goes on about you know

1403
00:50:33,430 --> 00:50:31,280
they used to whistle the the tune from

1404
00:50:36,630 --> 00:50:33,440
the x-files when he walked past he's

1405
00:50:39,109 --> 00:50:36,640
obviously he's obviously inclined to the

1406
00:50:41,030 --> 00:50:39,119
the idea that this is a genuine unknown

1407
00:50:43,910 --> 00:50:41,040
sure um

1408
00:50:46,549 --> 00:50:43,920
but the people who investigated it say

1409
00:50:48,470 --> 00:50:46,559
we know exactly what it was but we can't

1410
00:50:50,069 --> 00:50:48,480
admit it publicly

1411
00:50:53,190 --> 00:50:50,079
but yeah if you look at the three

1412
00:50:54,390 --> 00:50:53,200
options if we can eliminate the hoax

1413
00:50:56,630 --> 00:50:54,400
then

1414
00:51:00,390 --> 00:50:56,640
it's either an american experimental

1415
00:51:02,309 --> 00:51:00,400
craft or it's an alien spacecraft that

1416
00:51:04,069 --> 00:51:02,319
was zooming around over scotland nine

1417
00:51:07,030 --> 00:51:04,079
o'clock on a saturday night when he was

1418
00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:07,040
still light and and it triggered off the

1419
00:51:16,470 --> 00:51:09,280
air defenses and bizarrely they sent

1420
00:51:21,589 --> 00:51:17,910
this is another mystery where did the

1421
00:51:25,829 --> 00:51:24,309
yeah because the mod say on the record

1422
00:51:27,270 --> 00:51:25,839
that they've no record of harry is

1423
00:51:29,510 --> 00:51:27,280
operating

1424
00:51:31,750 --> 00:51:29,520
on that date and time on that location

1425
00:51:33,670 --> 00:51:31,760
and if and if you do a bit of research

1426
00:51:36,230 --> 00:51:33,680
online you will find that there weren't

1427
00:51:37,910 --> 00:51:36,240
any actual operational harriers in the

1428
00:51:39,829 --> 00:51:37,920
the uk mainland

1429
00:51:41,910 --> 00:51:39,839
on that date the nearest harrier

1430
00:51:45,829 --> 00:51:41,920
squadron was number four squadron at the

1431
00:51:47,430 --> 00:51:45,839
basins in west germany who were training

1432
00:51:49,430 --> 00:51:47,440
using harriers for the gulf of the

1433
00:51:52,069 --> 00:51:49,440
approaching war and they were sending

1434
00:51:54,069 --> 00:51:52,079
pairs of pilots over to the uk and it's

1435
00:51:55,270 --> 00:51:54,079
interesting this is one of the little

1436
00:51:57,829 --> 00:51:55,280
clues that's hidden away in the

1437
00:52:01,910 --> 00:51:57,839
paperwork on that re-tasking document

1438
00:52:05,030 --> 00:52:01,920
the di-55 one in 1995 whoever wrote that

1439
00:52:07,750 --> 00:52:05,040
said he'd had a chat with someone from

1440
00:52:09,190 --> 00:52:07,760
ops number four squadron

1441
00:52:11,510 --> 00:52:09,200
number four squadron is the harrier

1442
00:52:12,549 --> 00:52:11,520
squadron in germany

1443
00:52:14,950 --> 00:52:12,559
is this is

1444
00:52:17,510 --> 00:52:14,960
raf squadron based in germany

1445
00:52:20,309 --> 00:52:17,520
yeah raf gutersler in germany they were

1446
00:52:21,990 --> 00:52:20,319
operating um ground attack

1447
00:52:23,990 --> 00:52:22,000
harriers at the time there was no there

1448
00:52:26,950 --> 00:52:24,000
was no harriers operational harriers on

1449
00:52:29,510 --> 00:52:26,960
the uk mainland but all but bear in mind

1450
00:52:33,030 --> 00:52:29,520
harriers operate from aircraft carriers

1451
00:52:37,349 --> 00:52:35,510
operating from a royal navy

1452
00:52:38,710 --> 00:52:37,359
um aircraft carrier now who was it that

1453
00:52:41,030 --> 00:52:38,720
was based

1454
00:52:42,150 --> 00:52:41,040
um at raf macrohanna she was the u.s

1455
00:52:43,589 --> 00:52:42,160
navy

1456
00:52:45,990 --> 00:52:43,599
and i think you mentioned didn't you

1457
00:52:48,870 --> 00:52:46,000
earlier on vinnie that um it could have

1458
00:52:50,309 --> 00:52:48,880
been an 88 an american harrier

1459
00:52:52,870 --> 00:52:50,319
yeah that's the marine corps though i

1460
00:52:54,870 --> 00:52:52,880
believe yeah marine corps yeah

1461
00:52:57,589 --> 00:52:54,880
now i'm told that

1462
00:52:59,910 --> 00:52:57,599
that this was a us experimental aircraft

1463
00:53:02,710 --> 00:52:59,920
it was flying from raf macrohanish

1464
00:53:04,470 --> 00:53:02,720
that's where it was operating from and

1465
00:53:07,670 --> 00:53:04,480
it wasn't being intercepted by anything

1466
00:53:11,349 --> 00:53:07,680
it was being escorted by one british and

1467
00:53:14,630 --> 00:53:11,359
one american harrier

1468
00:53:16,230 --> 00:53:14,640
that makes the most sense yeah yeah but

1469
00:53:17,829 --> 00:53:16,240
it doesn't answer the question of why

1470
00:53:19,510 --> 00:53:17,839
was it why were they flying something

1471
00:53:21,670 --> 00:53:19,520
that was so secret that he needs to be

1472
00:53:22,790 --> 00:53:21,680
kept secret for 30 years in broad

1473
00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:22,800
daylight

1474
00:53:26,470 --> 00:53:24,720
over the scottish islands i know it's

1475
00:53:29,430 --> 00:53:26,480
remote-ish

1476
00:53:30,470 --> 00:53:29,440
but the a9 road is a very busy road in

1477
00:53:32,150 --> 00:53:30,480
august

1478
00:53:35,349 --> 00:53:32,160
there's a lot of people out on the malls

1479
00:53:36,710 --> 00:53:35,359
walking with cameras why would you um

1480
00:53:38,790 --> 00:53:36,720
take a risk

1481
00:53:40,390 --> 00:53:38,800
in that way and

1482
00:53:42,150 --> 00:53:40,400
one of the things that's been suggested

1483
00:53:43,990 --> 00:53:42,160
to me was that this was a pre-planned

1484
00:53:46,549 --> 00:53:44,000
exercise that the americans told the

1485
00:53:47,990 --> 00:53:46,559
british um we're going to be testing

1486
00:53:49,109 --> 00:53:48,000
this thing we're not going to tell you

1487
00:53:52,710 --> 00:53:49,119
where

1488
00:53:56,950 --> 00:53:55,589
but then again if it was over the a9

1489
00:53:58,069 --> 00:53:56,960
there aren't any other reports that we

1490
00:54:00,069 --> 00:53:58,079
know of

1491
00:54:02,150 --> 00:54:00,079
seems seems like they got away with it

1492
00:54:04,470 --> 00:54:02,160
but remember what this guy said

1493
00:54:07,589 --> 00:54:04,480
one in a million chance yeah just in the

1494
00:54:08,870 --> 00:54:07,599
wrong right place at the wrong time

1495
00:54:10,470 --> 00:54:08,880
don't forget this thing was supposed to

1496
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:10,480
be invisible

1497
00:54:13,990 --> 00:54:12,240
and so what's called them out is it

1498
00:54:16,549 --> 00:54:14,000
wasn't invisible for that period of time

1499
00:54:17,829 --> 00:54:16,559
when they saw it and photographed it

1500
00:54:19,270 --> 00:54:17,839
and they just so happened to have the

1501
00:54:21,589 --> 00:54:19,280
slr as well

1502
00:54:24,710 --> 00:54:21,599
and all this stuff is if you are an

1503
00:54:26,390 --> 00:54:24,720
intelligence operative or someone in the

1504
00:54:27,510 --> 00:54:26,400
ministry of defense you don't want these

1505
00:54:29,109 --> 00:54:27,520
things

1506
00:54:31,190 --> 00:54:29,119
discussed in public do you don't want

1507
00:54:31,990 --> 00:54:31,200
them out yeah

1508
00:54:33,910 --> 00:54:32,000
that's

1509
00:54:35,349 --> 00:54:33,920
more interesting than aliens this is

1510
00:54:40,150 --> 00:54:35,359
this is

1511
00:54:41,910 --> 00:54:40,160
down with real people and real documents

1512
00:54:43,589 --> 00:54:41,920
you know i i've yet to come across a

1513
00:54:45,270 --> 00:54:43,599
document that says yes we've got aliens

1514
00:54:47,109 --> 00:54:45,280
locked up in the cellar

1515
00:54:48,309 --> 00:54:47,119
yeah no i mean

1516
00:54:49,349 --> 00:54:48,319
fair enough

1517
00:54:51,270 --> 00:54:49,359
yeah

1518
00:54:53,349 --> 00:54:51,280
absolutely but one thing i will just say

1519
00:54:55,589 --> 00:54:53,359
about we're talking about the 15

1520
00:54:57,829 --> 00:54:55,599
possible years of like the you know

1521
00:54:59,190 --> 00:54:57,839
secrecy before um stealth technology is

1522
00:55:01,270 --> 00:54:59,200
unveiled and things

1523
00:55:03,430 --> 00:55:01,280
there are and there's always been

1524
00:55:05,270 --> 00:55:03,440
speculation and rumor about

1525
00:55:07,270 --> 00:55:05,280
are the government of 50 years ahead of

1526
00:55:08,630 --> 00:55:07,280
of what we know and things like that so

1527
00:55:10,470 --> 00:55:08,640
i mean

1528
00:55:11,510 --> 00:55:10,480
maybe this was something that happened

1529
00:55:14,710 --> 00:55:11,520
to be

1530
00:55:16,390 --> 00:55:14,720
30 years 40 50 years more advanced than

1531
00:55:18,230 --> 00:55:16,400
what we were used to seeing with

1532
00:55:21,109 --> 00:55:18,240
you know the initial development and

1533
00:55:24,470 --> 00:55:21,119
then release of stealth technology

1534
00:55:26,870 --> 00:55:24,480
maybe i mean it's pure speculation which

1535
00:55:29,829 --> 00:55:26,880
you know isn't always a good thing

1536
00:55:31,910 --> 00:55:29,839
bring your um up to more up today i'm

1537
00:55:33,270 --> 00:55:31,920
pretty sure that whatever this thing was

1538
00:55:36,309 --> 00:55:33,280
that tic tac

1539
00:55:37,670 --> 00:55:36,319
ufo that was seen um by the by the um

1540
00:55:39,109 --> 00:55:37,680
fight the the

1541
00:55:41,109 --> 00:55:39,119
hornet pilots

1542
00:55:43,030 --> 00:55:41,119
is something from this

1543
00:55:45,190 --> 00:55:43,040
same collection of

1544
00:55:46,230 --> 00:55:45,200
of technology that's that's um you know

1545
00:55:47,430 --> 00:55:46,240
obviously being developed by the

1546
00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:47,440
americans

1547
00:55:50,470 --> 00:55:48,400
right um

1548
00:55:53,750 --> 00:55:50,480
in the in where they did whether in area

1549
00:55:55,349 --> 00:55:53,760
51 on the various top secret bases where

1550
00:55:57,910 --> 00:55:55,359
they've been developing stuff ever since

1551
00:56:00,150 --> 00:55:57,920
the 1950s i mean don't forget back in

1552
00:56:02,390 --> 00:56:00,160
mid 1950s they were flying the u2 spy

1553
00:56:03,829 --> 00:56:02,400
plane which was equally top secret that

1554
00:56:06,309 --> 00:56:03,839
was seen

1555
00:56:08,710 --> 00:56:06,319
um and reported as a ufo on youtube a

1556
00:56:10,309 --> 00:56:08,720
lot of times a lot of times telling the

1557
00:56:12,150 --> 00:56:10,319
british they were flying it over the

1558
00:56:14,789 --> 00:56:12,160
north atlantic and it was triggering off

1559
00:56:16,470 --> 00:56:14,799
our air defenses and an aircraft was

1560
00:56:18,710 --> 00:56:16,480
seeing this thing way above anything

1561
00:56:19,510 --> 00:56:18,720
that that was you know possible at the

1562
00:56:20,230 --> 00:56:19,520
time

1563
00:56:23,190 --> 00:56:20,240
and

1564
00:56:26,150 --> 00:56:23,200
it just suits the their purposes to keep

1565
00:56:27,990 --> 00:56:26,160
the ufos flying isn't it because

1566
00:56:29,670 --> 00:56:28,000
anything that they don't want to be seen

1567
00:56:32,870 --> 00:56:29,680
or that they're testing they can say oh

1568
00:56:35,349 --> 00:56:32,880
well yeah it was a ufo you know so

1569
00:56:37,109 --> 00:56:35,359
yeah no i don't care enough

1570
00:56:38,710 --> 00:56:37,119
and there's all these communities of

1571
00:56:40,549 --> 00:56:38,720
people out there who want to believe it

1572
00:56:42,549 --> 00:56:40,559
and nick is part of this

1573
00:56:44,789 --> 00:56:42,559
you know and they just keep this thing

1574
00:56:45,990 --> 00:56:44,799
running you know i mean i'm not ruling

1575
00:56:47,349 --> 00:56:46,000
out the possibility that there are

1576
00:56:48,870 --> 00:56:47,359
genuine

1577
00:56:50,549 --> 00:56:48,880
anomalous things that could be from

1578
00:56:52,710 --> 00:56:50,559
outer space i don't know

1579
00:56:55,190 --> 00:56:52,720
it's a possibility but i think when you

1580
00:56:57,510 --> 00:56:55,200
look at all the cumulative evidence

1581
00:57:00,069 --> 00:56:57,520
about this case in particular yeah

1582
00:57:02,870 --> 00:57:00,079
you've got to conclude that the far more

1583
00:57:04,950 --> 00:57:02,880
likely explanation is option number two

1584
00:57:06,630 --> 00:57:04,960
it was a experimental aircraft and i've

1585
00:57:08,789 --> 00:57:06,640
got to admit in this case

1586
00:57:10,309 --> 00:57:08,799
i got it wrong i thought i concluded it

1587
00:57:12,710 --> 00:57:10,319
was a hoax

1588
00:57:14,470 --> 00:57:12,720
based upon the information that i had

1589
00:57:16,309 --> 00:57:14,480
at the time that i

1590
00:57:18,549 --> 00:57:16,319
i did this big investigation i put it on

1591
00:57:19,750 --> 00:57:18,559
my blog i think it was about two months

1592
00:57:21,109 --> 00:57:19,760
ago

1593
00:57:23,109 --> 00:57:21,119
and i said i've reached the point now

1594
00:57:25,750 --> 00:57:23,119
where i just simply cannot find

1595
00:57:28,390 --> 00:57:25,760
out anything more about this so

1596
00:57:31,430 --> 00:57:28,400
using the logic of sherlock holmes that

1597
00:57:34,309 --> 00:57:31,440
once you've in eliminated the impossible

1598
00:57:37,109 --> 00:57:34,319
whatever's left however improbable must

1599
00:57:38,630 --> 00:57:37,119
be the truth sure

1600
00:57:40,630 --> 00:57:38,640
if you apply that logic to this an

1601
00:57:45,430 --> 00:57:40,640
occam's razor which is you should pick

1602
00:57:50,069 --> 00:57:48,069
you know so occam's razor would say you

1603
00:57:53,030 --> 00:57:50,079
don't go for aliens because you're

1604
00:57:55,030 --> 00:57:53,040
multiplying the hypotheses needed

1605
00:57:57,430 --> 00:57:55,040
in order to sort of explain the uh the

1606
00:57:59,190 --> 00:57:57,440
factual information that you've got yeah

1607
00:58:00,870 --> 00:57:59,200
okay so but it doesn't mean to say that

1608
00:58:02,549 --> 00:58:00,880
aliens couldn't be

1609
00:58:04,549 --> 00:58:02,559
involved but you'd have to have a very

1610
00:58:05,990 --> 00:58:04,559
you'd have to have evidence that that

1611
00:58:08,069 --> 00:58:06,000
fact

1612
00:58:09,990 --> 00:58:08,079
so i looked at the next possibility

1613
00:58:12,789 --> 00:58:10,000
experimental aircraft this is what i've

1614
00:58:15,190 --> 00:58:12,799
been told was the case but maybe my um

1615
00:58:17,750 --> 00:58:15,200
intelligence contacts would lying to me

1616
00:58:19,270 --> 00:58:17,760
sending me off on a false trail

1617
00:58:21,190 --> 00:58:19,280
um

1618
00:58:23,270 --> 00:58:21,200
but none of the stuff about the red

1619
00:58:24,950 --> 00:58:23,280
daily record made any sense why did the

1620
00:58:27,430 --> 00:58:24,960
photographer not come forward why had

1621
00:58:29,670 --> 00:58:27,440
they not been able to trace the harriers

1622
00:58:31,990 --> 00:58:29,680
you know all of that made me think well

1623
00:58:33,270 --> 00:58:32,000
maybe the photograph itself

1624
00:58:35,190 --> 00:58:33,280
is fake

1625
00:58:36,549 --> 00:58:35,200
and the reason then if you think about

1626
00:58:37,750 --> 00:58:36,559
it in that way

1627
00:58:39,510 --> 00:58:37,760
the reason they couldn't trace the

1628
00:58:43,030 --> 00:58:39,520
harriers is that the photograph wasn't

1629
00:58:44,710 --> 00:58:43,040
taken on the 4th of august 1990

1630
00:58:47,030 --> 00:58:44,720
you know if somebody was deliberately

1631
00:58:49,589 --> 00:58:47,040
setting out to fake a photograph and

1632
00:58:51,349 --> 00:58:49,599
fool the intelligence services and don't

1633
00:58:52,950 --> 00:58:51,359
forget this is not a stupid person this

1634
00:58:55,030 --> 00:58:52,960
is a very clever person if they were

1635
00:58:58,230 --> 00:58:55,040
doing it all you'd have to do is go to

1636
00:59:01,030 --> 00:58:58,240
an air show take a picture of a harrier

1637
00:59:02,710 --> 00:59:01,040
and then i don't know um i'm not a

1638
00:59:05,109 --> 00:59:02,720
photographic expert i'm sure there are

1639
00:59:07,589 --> 00:59:05,119
ways that you can make another object

1640
00:59:09,589 --> 00:59:07,599
appear don't forget this is free digital

1641
00:59:11,829 --> 00:59:09,599
yeah this kind of pre-photoshopped

1642
00:59:13,190 --> 00:59:11,839
cameras there's no way that you can look

1643
00:59:16,309 --> 00:59:13,200
at that print we don't even have the

1644
00:59:18,470 --> 00:59:16,319
print and so on by some magical means

1645
00:59:20,470 --> 00:59:18,480
work out exactly where it was taken and

1646
00:59:22,950 --> 00:59:20,480
when it was taken because this is an old

1647
00:59:24,390 --> 00:59:22,960
old-fashioned slr camera

1648
00:59:27,430 --> 00:59:24,400
and we don't have the print or the

1649
00:59:31,030 --> 00:59:27,440
negative anyway so

1650
00:59:31,750 --> 00:59:31,040
yeah 100 i'm with you on this

1651
00:59:33,109 --> 00:59:31,760
so completely and

1652
00:59:35,990 --> 00:59:33,119
all the facts

1653
00:59:37,829 --> 00:59:36,000
um what and i thought well i can't i

1654
00:59:39,990 --> 00:59:37,839
didn't know for sure then why the daily

1655
00:59:41,990 --> 00:59:40,000
record hadn't run it but i thought if if

1656
00:59:44,710 --> 00:59:42,000
it was a fake then maybe the simple

1657
00:59:46,470 --> 00:59:44,720
explanation was the daily record guy had

1658
00:59:48,789 --> 00:59:46,480
looked at him thought this is an obvious

1659
00:59:50,390 --> 00:59:48,799
fake yeah we're not running a story like

1660
00:59:54,069 --> 00:59:50,400
this because it will make us look stupid

1661
00:59:55,030 --> 00:59:54,079
exactly the ridicule and that yeah

1662
00:59:57,030 --> 00:59:55,040
dies

1663
00:59:59,030 --> 00:59:57,040
so we can't ask him whether that really

1664
01:00:00,549 --> 00:59:59,040
happened so looking at all the evidence

1665
01:00:01,670 --> 01:00:00,559
that i had at that point and i didn't

1666
01:00:03,670 --> 01:00:01,680
know i

1667
01:00:05,510 --> 01:00:03,680
hadn't gone into this in the detail i've

1668
01:00:06,309 --> 01:00:05,520
later gone into it

1669
01:00:07,510 --> 01:00:06,319
um

1670
01:00:09,750 --> 01:00:07,520
to me

1671
01:00:11,349 --> 01:00:09,760
the hoax seemed to be answered every

1672
01:00:13,510 --> 01:00:11,359
single one of those mysteries if you

1673
01:00:14,789 --> 01:00:13,520
think about it yeah

1674
01:00:16,950 --> 01:00:14,799
but

1675
01:00:18,549 --> 01:00:16,960
um since that time as these things

1676
01:00:20,230 --> 01:00:18,559
happen you publish something and then

1677
01:00:21,270 --> 01:00:20,240
all these other people come out and they

1678
01:00:23,190 --> 01:00:21,280
would work

1679
01:00:25,510 --> 01:00:23,200
telling you all the things

1680
01:00:27,990 --> 01:00:25,520
so i i i now

1681
01:00:29,670 --> 01:00:28,000
i have to admit it live on know i was

1682
01:00:31,510 --> 01:00:29,680
wrong

1683
01:00:32,950 --> 01:00:31,520
that's a big thing

1684
01:00:35,109 --> 01:00:32,960
i appreciate that and i think that gives

1685
01:00:36,630 --> 01:00:35,119
you even more credibility in your

1686
01:00:40,630 --> 01:00:36,640
research and the way you just

1687
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:47,190
i'm not

1688
01:00:51,990 --> 01:00:49,670
hours and hours and hours on the phone

1689
01:00:53,990 --> 01:00:52,000
doing hard graft what we used to call

1690
01:00:56,069 --> 01:00:54,000
shoe leather journalism you speak to one

1691
01:00:57,510 --> 01:00:56,079
person they say um i don't know anything

1692
01:00:59,510 --> 01:00:57,520
about this but maybe you should speak to

1693
01:01:02,069 --> 01:00:59,520
so-and-so you know i've had adverts in

1694
01:01:04,069 --> 01:01:02,079
the local media i've tracked down all

1695
01:01:06,309 --> 01:01:04,079
these sort of obscure names from these

1696
01:01:08,710 --> 01:01:06,319
documents i've had a couple of really

1697
01:01:10,470 --> 01:01:08,720
lucky breaks where the documents that

1698
01:01:12,549 --> 01:01:10,480
they've released to me which are usually

1699
01:01:14,470 --> 01:01:12,559
redacted they've actually forgot to take

1700
01:01:16,710 --> 01:01:14,480
a name out

1701
01:01:17,670 --> 01:01:16,720
and then i can track that person down

1702
01:01:20,230 --> 01:01:17,680
you know

1703
01:01:22,630 --> 01:01:20,240
that's fantastic conclusion

1704
01:01:25,109 --> 01:01:22,640
the conclusion is

1705
01:01:27,109 --> 01:01:25,119
and i don't think i i ever expected i

1706
01:01:30,309 --> 01:01:27,119
would say this live

1707
01:01:32,710 --> 01:01:30,319
this what is a genuine example of a

1708
01:01:34,390 --> 01:01:32,720
military cover-up there's no two ways

1709
01:01:35,990 --> 01:01:34,400
about it they know what this thing is

1710
01:01:38,630 --> 01:01:36,000
they've done everything they can to stop

1711
01:01:40,950 --> 01:01:38,640
this the truth about these photographs

1712
01:01:43,510 --> 01:01:40,960
getting into the public domain and i

1713
01:01:44,950 --> 01:01:43,520
intend to make sure that the truth does

1714
01:01:46,950 --> 01:01:44,960
get into the public domain even if it

1715
01:01:48,870 --> 01:01:46,960
takes me another 12 years

1716
01:01:50,309 --> 01:01:48,880
but i suspect

1717
01:01:51,910 --> 01:01:50,319
i suspect we're never going to see the

1718
01:01:53,990 --> 01:01:51,920
original photographs because i think

1719
01:01:54,870 --> 01:01:54,000
they've um they've hidden them they're

1720
01:01:56,549 --> 01:01:54,880
buried

1721
01:01:59,190 --> 01:01:56,559
somewhere where

1722
01:02:01,029 --> 01:01:59,200
whatever is done unless we get um

1723
01:02:02,230 --> 01:02:01,039
politicians to sort of raise this in

1724
01:02:04,470 --> 01:02:02,240
parliament which

1725
01:02:05,510 --> 01:02:04,480
i hope people will do that talk to your

1726
01:02:07,670 --> 01:02:05,520
mp

1727
01:02:10,230 --> 01:02:07,680
ask them to raise this in parliament

1728
01:02:12,549 --> 01:02:10,240
because i very much doubt that they will

1729
01:02:14,230 --> 01:02:12,559
lie directly if they've they're asked a

1730
01:02:16,630 --> 01:02:14,240
very specific question about it but

1731
01:02:18,870 --> 01:02:16,640
they'll find some way of getting around

1732
01:02:20,390 --> 01:02:18,880
it and the thing about oh our experts

1733
01:02:22,710 --> 01:02:20,400
looked at this and determined it was of

1734
01:02:23,829 --> 01:02:22,720
no defense significance is

1735
01:02:25,349 --> 01:02:23,839
not

1736
01:02:27,109 --> 01:02:25,359
untrue

1737
01:02:29,990 --> 01:02:27,119
but it doesn't actually say what

1738
01:02:32,630 --> 01:02:30,000
happened and there must be

1739
01:02:34,630 --> 01:02:32,640
documents somewhere that contain the

1740
01:02:37,109 --> 01:02:34,640
truth of what happened

1741
01:02:37,910 --> 01:02:37,119
well listen we've just hit the hour mark

1742
01:02:39,829 --> 01:02:37,920
so

1743
01:02:41,829 --> 01:02:39,839
i had other questions of the cases but

1744
01:02:43,750 --> 01:02:41,839
what i'd like to do is invite you back

1745
01:02:45,270 --> 01:02:43,760
another time and we'll do other cases

1746
01:02:47,430 --> 01:02:45,280
another time because that was

1747
01:02:49,029 --> 01:02:47,440
fascinating absolutely exactly what i

1748
01:02:51,109 --> 01:02:49,039
wanted to hear about the carving case so

1749
01:02:52,710 --> 01:02:51,119
i cannot thank you enough well that's

1750
01:02:55,109 --> 01:02:52,720
not disappointing because i think it's a

1751
01:02:55,990 --> 01:02:55,119
good result i absolutely don't the thing

1752
01:02:58,470 --> 01:02:56,000
is

1753
01:03:00,230 --> 01:02:58,480
i i'm on the same level as you

1754
01:03:01,829 --> 01:03:00,240
i want the answers

1755
01:03:03,829 --> 01:03:01,839
and if they're not aliens and not

1756
01:03:04,710 --> 01:03:03,839
extraterrestrials then so be it it's a

1757
01:03:06,309 --> 01:03:04,720
case

1758
01:03:08,470 --> 01:03:06,319
we can push aside and then focus on

1759
01:03:10,950 --> 01:03:08,480
another one so this is exactly what i

1760
01:03:13,190 --> 01:03:10,960
wanted to hear the detail the depth of

1761
01:03:15,430 --> 01:03:13,200
your journalism your research

1762
01:03:17,829 --> 01:03:15,440
um and the length of time

1763
01:03:19,270 --> 01:03:17,839
i i had notes on here that i didn't even

1764
01:03:21,349 --> 01:03:19,280
have to read because you covered the

1765
01:03:23,270 --> 01:03:21,359
points

1766
01:03:25,029 --> 01:03:23,280
i've deliberately not mentioned some

1767
01:03:28,630 --> 01:03:25,039
things because i'm still following up

1768
01:03:32,470 --> 01:03:28,640
some of these um leads

1769
01:03:36,950 --> 01:03:35,029
let's do it again

1770
01:03:39,190 --> 01:03:36,960
you know let's just keep talking well

1771
01:03:42,829 --> 01:03:39,200
keep in touch let me know anything you

1772
01:03:45,750 --> 01:03:42,839
you might feel inclined to let me know

1773
01:03:48,230 --> 01:03:45,760
um one of the first to hear village

1774
01:03:50,630 --> 01:03:48,240
very much done a lot of work on this he

1775
01:03:53,109 --> 01:03:50,640
has indeed i cannot

1776
01:03:55,910 --> 01:03:53,119
shout that guy out enough he's a he's a

1777
01:03:58,710 --> 01:03:55,920
a dear dear guy um i love him to bits

1778
01:04:01,270 --> 01:03:58,720
he's great so listen david i will leave

1779
01:04:03,750 --> 01:04:01,280
it at that and thank you to everyone who